Racism done right and wrong in fiction

[Ricin]

I personally think Seth McFarlan is racist. It's a wee bit annoying. He's either racist of doesn't understand how to correctly say a racist joke without looking like an asshole.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone don't come off as racist to me at all.

The difference is in Shows by Seth McFarlan there will be a black man doing something that fits into a stereotype and is considered very racist. Other minorities in his shows end up doing things that makes it so the person who appears to be a racist is whomever wrote the script.

Where in shows like south park there's a character in the show who's a racist and everyone in the show points out this is wrong. His racism can still be used as a joke with everyone else looking down on him for it because it never displays any of the racial idea's to be true. It just has a character who is a racist.

 

[sprinkles]

In South Park the joke is probably the fact that anyone says any behavior is wrong.

I don't think it is necessary to point out that something is wrong (in fiction) when it is obviously wrong. Doing that all the time is pretty much like pulling an Aesop and gets cheesy after a while.

At the same time, not showing it being pointed out as wrong is not necessarily any kind of author tract either. Some times the whole point of something is to BE wrong. (I'm looking at you, Family Guy)

 

[freeeekyyy]

Yeah, I kind of got the idea that seth mcfarlane might be a racist too. I'm not sure though. I think it's hard to make that kind of judgment without at least having some sort of personal knowledge of him. All we have is his tv show, which I don't think tells nearly enough about him to say. Anybody ever seen any interviews with him?

 

[Ricin]

Yeah, I kind of got the idea that seth mcfarlane might be a racist too. I'm not sure though. I think it's hard to make that kind of judgment without at least having some sort of personal knowledge of him. All we have is his tv show, which I don't think tells nearly enough about him to say. Anybody ever seen any interviews with him?

Pretty much how I feel.
I personally don't like most of his shows because of the racial tones added to it and end up a lot of times saying "Yeah, that's not funny... fuck this show." And not watching it. I'm more annoyed when my friends say things they heard from family guy to me. Like reaching out and touching my hair then saying it's like a sheep... which is pretty damn obnoxious.

 

[CzeCze]

Say whhhhhhhat? I loathe South Park. I think the creators come off ign'ant. It's always interesting to me to see what white person thinks they have a comedic pass or "gets racism". Because the key to making racism funny is to "get it" and then play on it. Some people mistake stereotyping for satire. When I look at old All In The Family I'm like WTF the audience is not laughing with but laughing at stereotypes. At the time it was considering 'edgy' or 'groundbreaking' because the creators wanted to 'deal with sensitive topics like racism'. Whatevs. Not much different from Good Times and other shows which were written mostly by white male writers and had various actors protesting the stereotypical portrayal of members. It was just another minstrel show in some respects.

Seth McFarlan's sense of humor is not as rough around the edges or unsophisticated, even though he deals with an "intellectually handicapped" main character and lots of potty humor and homoerotic jokes. I think the humor is much more clever. Is it racist? Sure, you could say that, some jokes more than others.

I think all of that above can be wrapped into the idea that "with humor, there are no sacred cows and taboo subjects" a la Ricky Gervais. It's like authors who say "I can write about anything I want, even if I have no first-hand experience or research into the subject - you can't reign in my creative jeenius!?!?!?!!!" It's why you get people who simply aren't funny who think screaming racial epithets is "edgy" and straight married middle aged white men who pretend to be Muslim lesbian journalists and start graphic online affairs with women a continent away. When you don't really have much racism/sexism/etc. to deal with yourself, it's pretty easy to fun of it and fantasize "what if".

If you look at humor dealing with race by comedians of color (Margaret Cho, Paul Mooney) the humor cuts a very different way. It's generally more an analysis of isms and society, more cutting and critical, and less a "haha, lets laugh at the usual stereotype because it's funny" variety.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Say whhhhhhhat? I loathe South Park. I think the creators come off ign'ant. It's always interesting to me to see what white person thinks they have a comedic pass or "gets racism". Because the key to making racism funny is to "get it" and then play on it. Some people mistake stereotyping for satire. When I look at old All In The Family I'm like WTF the audience is not laughing with but laughing at stereotypes. At the time it was considering 'edgy' or 'groundbreaking' because the creators wanted to 'deal with sensitive topics like racism'. Whatevs. Not much different from Good Times and other shows which were written mostly by white male writers and had various actors protesting the stereotypical portrayal of members. It was just another minstrel show in some respects.

Seth McFarlan's sense of humor is not as rough around the edges or unsophisticated, even though he deals with an "intellectually handicapped" main character and lots of potty humor and homoerotic jokes. I think the humor is much more clever. Is it racist? Sure, you could say that, some jokes more than others.

I think all of that above can be wrapped into the idea that "with humor, there are no sacred cows and taboo subjects" a la Ricky Gervais. It's like authors who say "I can write about anything I want, even if I have no first-hand experience or research into the subject - you can't reign in my creative jeenius!?!?!?!!!" It's why you get people who simply aren't funny who think screaming racial epithets is "edgy" and straight married middle aged white men who pretend to be Muslim lesbian journalists and start graphic online affairs with women a continent away. When you don't really have much racism/sexism/etc. to deal with yourself, it's pretty easy to fun of it and fantasize "what if".

If you look at humor dealing with race by comedians of color (Margaret Cho, Paul Mooney) the humor cuts a very different way. It's generally more an analysis of isms and society, more cutting and critical, and less a "haha, lets laugh at the usual stereotype because it's funny" variety.

I don't know if it was the OPs intent to make a south park thread, but if you think those criticisms apply to it, I don't think you've watched it enough, or it simply isn't your type of humor. It's never about laughing at the racial stereotypes, but the ridiculousness of the characters and their racism. Eric Cartman is a racist. He's hated for it. There's nothing in any way that promotes that at all. The joke is his anti-semitism, not jews themselves. (Or whatever other character and race may be involved.) Do you see the difference?

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=9331]freeeekyyy[/MENTION]

If nobody hated Cartman would it become a racist show written by a racist?

Does a work have to tell you how you are supposed to feel about it?

My take is that it doesn't have to tell you anything about how to judge it, and if it does tell you, that actually detracts from it - unless it is done for ironic purposes.

You could have an entire show full of Cartmans and it still doesn't necessarily promote racism. Unless of course you need someone else to tell you what you're supposed to think about it.

Edit:
Personally I can hate Cartman all by myself without the other characters support.

 

[sprinkles]

Pretty much how I feel.
I personally don't like most of his shows because of the racial tones added to it and end up a lot of times saying "Yeah, that's not funny... fuck this show." And not watching it. I'm more annoyed when my friends say things they heard from family guy to me. Like reaching out and touching my hair then saying it's like a sheep... which is pretty damn obnoxious.

Those people should not be watching television because they obviously can't handle it.

Actually if I had my way, nobody would watch television.

 

[Ricin]

I don't know if it was the OPs intent to make a south park thread

It wasn't. The intent was to make a thread pointing out the differences between fiction where racism is done correctly vs. done wrong. Like one that simply has a racist character in it vs. one where minorities fit a racial stereotype and that's something that's poked fun at.

, but if you think those criticisms apply to it, I don't think you've watched it enough, or it simply isn't your type of humor. It's never about laughing at the racial stereotypes, but the ridiculousness of the characters and their racism. Eric Cartman is a racist. He's hated for it. There's nothing in any way that promotes that at all. The joke is his anti-semitism, not jews themselves. (Or whatever other character and race may be involved.) Do you see the difference?

Pretty much. Throughout the show Eric Cartman is shown as a racist and believes many other stereotypes. Usually the joke is that he's stupid for thinking this way and it blows up in his face so the viewers are seeing a racist act like an asshole and then get screwed for it. It's one of those things where the horrible things that happen to Cartman are funny because he's a selfish bigoted sociopath but otherwise wouldn't be that funny. A character who, a lot of times, is designed for the audience to be happy when misfortune comes his way.

The cleveland show is a piece of shit tv show about black people written by a white man. It has a black family fitting into various stereotypes and constantly pokes fun at black people and basically says this is the way black are. It was bad enough in Family guy when they did that occasionally. The difference is that in Family guy there aren't really racist characters but the characters in the show often fit racial stereotypes which makes me think the author might just be racist. And south park has a racist character, the joke isn't on the jews, the redheads, etc.. The joke is on Cartman being that ignorant.

Say whhhhhhhat? I loathe South Park. I think the creators come off ign'ant. It's always interesting to me to see what white person thinks they have a comedic pass or "gets racism". Because the key to making racism funny is to "get it" and then play on it. Some people mistake stereotyping for satire. When I look at old All In The Family I'm like WTF the audience is not laughing with but laughing at stereotypes. At the time it was considering 'edgy' or 'groundbreaking' because the creators wanted to 'deal with sensitive topics like racism'. Whatevs. Not much different from Good Times and other shows which were written mostly by white male writers and had various actors protesting the stereotypical portrayal of members. It was just another minstrel show in some respects.

Seth McFarlan's sense of humor is not as rough around the edges or unsophisticated, even though he deals with an "intellectually handicapped" main character and lots of potty humor and homoerotic jokes. I think the humor is much more clever. Is it racist? Sure, you could say that, some jokes more than others.

I think all of that above can be wrapped into the idea that "with humor, there are no sacred cows and taboo subjects" a la Ricky Gervais. It's like authors who say "I can write about anything I want, even if I have no first-hand experience or research into the subject - you can't reign in my creative jeenius!?!?!?!!!" It's why you get people who simply aren't funny who think screaming racial epithets is "edgy" and straight married middle aged white men who pretend to be Muslim lesbian journalists and start graphic online affairs with women a continent away. When you don't really have much racism/sexism/etc. to deal with yourself, it's pretty easy to fun of it and fantasize "what if".

If you look at humor dealing with race by comedians of color (Margaret Cho, Paul Mooney) the humor cuts a very different way. It's generally more an analysis of isms and society, more cutting and critical, and less a "haha, lets laugh at the usual stereotype because it's funny" variety.

I'm not sure you've watched much of south park.
It really isn't about the stereotype as much as it's showing a racist character who's hated for being that way. He makes fun of Kyle for being jewish and kenny for being poor and people say he's an asshole. Also it backfires a lot on him. Stan, Kyle, and Kenny have all said [multiple types] that they hate cartman and he's not their friend. Sometimes they say he's incapable of empathy and feeling and they feel sorry for him which is why they hang out with him.


Being a minority I do tend to notice a lot of the time when someone simply doesn't get it. Listening to most minorities make jokes that're racial [like chris rock] you tend to notice an underlying message saying "This is what this shit is like!!! It fucking sucks, don't you fucking get it, being black isn't fun. We have to work extra fucking hard to make it in life and it still fucking sucks." e.g. Chris rock jokes about how he's a rich black guy. Mentions he's in a room full of white people and says not a single one of them would trade places with him. If the busboy was given the opportunity he's say "Yeah, I'm gonna ride this being white thing out."

Generally that's what minorities comedy is like when it's racial.

 

[sprinkles]

*throws a sledge hammer through the television*

I think people have had about enough of this infernal abomination.

 

[Ricin]

[MENTION=9331]freeeekyyy[/MENTION]

If nobody hated Cartman would it become a racist show written by a racist?

Does a work have to tell you how you are supposed to feel about it?

My take is that it doesn't have to tell you anything about how to judge it, and if it does tell you, that actually detracts from it - unless it is done for ironic purposes.

You could have an entire show full of Cartmans and it still doesn't necessarily promote racism. Unless of course you need someone else to tell you what you're supposed to think about it.

Edit:
Personally I can hate Cartman all by myself without the other characters support.

I think the point wasn't that others don't agree with Cartman's racism as much as Cartman's a racist opposed to characters fitting stereotypes. At least that's what I got out of it anyway.

Those people should not be watching television because they obviously can't handle it.

Actually if I had my way, nobody would watch television.

Eh... Censorship is pretty evil.
I wouldn't deny T.V. to the masses, I'd just make less restrictions on what's aloud on television and work on making it easier for just anyone to put a show on television. So that a wide variety of everything from various qualities ends up on tv and shows are naturally eliminated by ratings. Then it'd just be what people wanted to watch instead of just what whomever had enough movie put together. To an extent anyway... but that's a whole different topic.

 

[sprinkles]

I think the point wasn't that others don't agree with Cartman's racism as much as Cartman's a racist opposed to characters fitting stereotypes. At least that's what I got out of it anyway.


Eh... Censorship is pretty evil.
I wouldn't deny T.V. to the masses, I'd just make less restrictions on what's aloud on television and work on making it easier for just anyone to put a show on television. So that a wide variety of everything from various qualities ends up on tv and shows are naturally eliminated by ratings. Then it'd just be what people wanted to watch instead of just what whomever had enough movie put together. To an extent anyway... but that's a whole different topic.

Ahh, ok. I get it now I think.

Yeah I think there's confusion over stereotypes which is why I hate when writers put them in the script and try to pass it off as properly written.

I frickin hate that. It makes the whole thing stilted and corny. Like Good Times.

So I get what you're saying now and yeah I agree. Also I'd never actually censor television but it's just frustrating when some people seem to take their moral and ethical cues from it in spite of all common sense.

 

[freeeekyyy]

[MENTION=9331]freeeekyyy[/MENTION]

If nobody hated Cartman would it become a racist show written by a racist?

Does a work have to tell you how you are supposed to feel about it?

My take is that it doesn't have to tell you anything about how to judge it, and if it does tell you, that actually detracts from it - unless it is done for ironic purposes.

You could have an entire show full of Cartmans and it still doesn't necessarily promote racism. Unless of course you need someone else to tell you what you're supposed to think about it.

Edit:
Personally I can hate Cartman all by myself without the other characters support.

Not necessarily. I don't know that family guy, for instance, is really racist. I just get the feeling from the way that racial issues are handled in that show that it's creator (McFarlane) may be. Part of why is because racial matters seem to be all he's capable of joking about, partly because he goes after them with a huge sledgehammer and uses no subtlety at all, and partly because it makes fairly direct jokes about a race of people, rather than the racists. I don't know his motivations, and I'm not going to say I do; I'm just a bit suspicious.

 

[freeeekyyy]

I think the point wasn't that others don't agree with Cartman's racism as much as Cartman's a racist opposed to characters fitting stereotypes. At least that's what I got out of it anyway.

Exactly...

 

[sprinkles]

Not necessarily. I don't know that family guy, for instance, is really racist. I just get the feeling from the way that racial issues are handled in that show that it's creator (McFarlane) may be. Part of why is because racial matters seem to be all he's capable of joking about, partly because he goes after them with a huge sledgehammer and uses no subtlety at all, and partly because it makes fairly direct jokes about a race of people, rather than the racists. I don't know his motivations, and I'm not going to say I do; I'm just a bit suspicious.

Well as far as I know he isn't, not overtly. He contributed to Obama and supports gay rights and humanitarianism.

He's been panned for insensitive humor but I don't think he intends to send these messages - he's just weird and insensitive at times.

Not that I'm defending him either. I really don't care.

 

[Sniffles]

It's more about making fun of racists and racism really. If they actually did promote racism, they wouldn't see the light of day or would be heavily censored much like the infamous "Censored Eleven" and other cartoons from the 30s and 40s that more overtly protrayed racial stereotypes.

 

[Ricin]

Ahh, ok. I get it now I think.

Yeah I think there's confusion over stereotypes which is why I hate when writers put them in the script and try to pass it off as properly written.

I frickin hate that. It makes the whole thing stilted and corny. Like Good Times.

So I get what you're saying now and yeah I agree. Also I'd never actually censor television but it's just frustrating when some people seem to take their moral and ethical cues from it in spite of all common sense.

Some people are stupid and have no real sense of self, unfortunately.

Not necessarily. I don't know that family guy, for instance, is really racist. I just get the feeling from the way that racial issues are handled in that show that it's creator (McFarlane) may be. Part of why is because racial matters seem to be all he's capable of joking about, partly because he goes after them with a huge sledgehammer and uses no subtlety at all, and partly because it makes fairly direct jokes about a race of people, rather than the racists. I don't know his motivations, and I'm not going to say I do; I'm just a bit suspicious.

Pretty much. That stuff just rubs me the wrong way so I don't really care much for it.

It's more about making fun of racists and racism really. If they actually did promote racism, they wouldn't see the light of day or would be heavily censored much like the infamous "Censored Eleven" and other cartoons from the 30s and 40s that more overtly protrayed racial stereotypes.

There's a way to get shit past the radar that's used pretty commonly in shows and advertisement. Also for something to be racist is doesn't have to directly be this way as much as have undertones of it, like good times. The 30s and 40s cartoons didn't hide their racism and were more in your face about it. in the 50s tv and cartoons were still racist.

Basically what I'm saying is that even if it isn't in your face as much as it used to be it doesn't mean it isn't racist.

 

[kyuuei]

I don't really find racist jokes all that funny either way. I'll laugh if a group of people are laughing--but I do that regardless of if I'm actually amused or not.. I enjoy laughing with others, so I hardly control that aspect of my life.

Racist jokes, male/female jokes, marriage jokes.. usually these just sound bitter, jaded, whiny, and ridiculous to me. The time I think is right to apply marriage sort of jokes is when something becomes funny in a small group of people.. "Omg! My husband/wife does that too!" And then we all laugh. But Racist jokes? I don't really find a place I enjoy them. Something will still nag at me that it is wrong--even when my more primal instincts want to make the connections everyone else is.

Where I tend to 'enjoy racism' is via books and movies showing its atrocities. This is not to be confused for wanting a cutesy "Omg racism is bad kids " one-liner outlined for me every time. I'd like to determine that for myself. To Kill a Mockingbird which showcases people doing the right thing, or A Time to Kill, when people create something racist out of nothing.. Even American History X and Crash got it right--showcasing how people come to these mentalities and thoughts. Crash in particular was a very eye-opening, moving movie.

I'll still probably laugh at a few baser jokes thrown around, but they don't give me the entertainment that other aspects of shows like South Park have given me. I do agree though that South Park is more subtly pointing out how retarded racism looks on others.. Eric Cartman is constantly a reminder of 'that one buddy' we all have that makes comments that aren't really that funny and just sound stupid to the rest of the group regarding subjects like that. They point out it is wrong--but not themselves. They sort of leave that up to the audience, which I enjoy.

I think who gets it wrong more often than not is stand-up comedians. The subject is a tired, washed out one.. and I find that even comedy aired long ago, when jokes and talking about situations like that were funny, sort of make me frown to watch them.
Who I think gets it wrong - Carlos Mencia and Tosh.0 .. Stereotypes thrown everywhere with a few clever words to spice them up fools me about as much as putting sprinkles on shit.
Who I think got it right - George Lopez, Whoever the puppet-dude is, and the "Fluffy" guy. They talk about their lives.. sometimes they play on the stereotypes, sometimes they fall into them, but it is focused on them and their experiences--they don't push opinions on anyone or groups of people. It makes the concepts far more enjoyable. I don't think I could have given two shits about George Lopez if he talked about his skits in a way that implied only Hispanic families go through these things.. growing up around many families in that culture, I found I related to the skits so much, and I enjoyed them more as a result.

 

[Orangey]

Seth MacFarlane is a fucking idiot. That's all I know for sure.

His style of "humor" is what I'd call the lowest of the low.

Honestly, I wouldn't hate him so much if it weren't abundantly clear that he thinks of himself and his material as intelligent and subversive. If he would just accept the fact that he's a simpleton, and that his shows exhibit simpleton humor, then it'd all be good (though I still wouldn't watch that shit.)

 

[Sniffles]

Basically what I'm saying is that even if it isn't in your face as much as it used to be it doesn't mean it isn't racist.

Except too often trying to prove more subtle forms of racism comes down to the eye of the beholder really. The fact that such racism has to be more subtle alone actually tells you something here.