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Plot, aesthetic, characters

gmanyo

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Out of plot, aesthetic, and characters, what do you think is the most important/your favorite part of a story, movie, or game (or any other artistic medium)? Do you think they need to operate together to form a cohesive work? Do you think that something else is more important.

In written works, I think that characters are the most important (See: Nick Hornby), but for games I usually put aesthetic first, then characters, then plot (See: Yume Nikki). For movies, I can go for either aesthetic and characters (See: Chinatown) but sometimes just good writing and plot do the trick (See: Network).

There are obviously exceptions to these rules.
 

FunnyDigestion

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The way I basically see it is

plot - mythology
characters - humanity
aesthetic - storytelling (presentation of story)

So, what you get from that is, a story is a presentation of humanity enmeshed in mythology. I think all stories fit in that definition (if you expand humanity to include personifications, animals, etc).

Going from that, I think you have to say the aesthetic presentation is most important, since without that the story wouldn't exist. The rest is in the prepositional phrase. You could tell the same story a hundred times, all different. How many stories about about star-crossed lovers are there?

It reminds me of a quote I read from the guy who wrote the Notebook, he said he writes about the same things Shakespeare did, they both write love stories. Which is true. Of course they do it differently.
 

Qlip

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Ehh, not to be a pain in the ass, but I put more stock in how effective the writer uses these devices to convey the overreaching idea or feeling of the 'message'. Science Fiction is traditionally bad at creating good characters, because character development can be a distraction to what the story is trying to present. Any strong plot can get in the way of a story meant to convey a sense of uncertainty and meaninglessness. I guess, to me, it's all in the result.
 

Such Irony

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Plot, characters, aestethic in that order. Plot and characters are neck-and-neck. I guess I put plot first because what primarily makes me decide whether or not to pick up a book is the premise. What's the book about? No I don't want all the details of the plot spelled out but the type of plot it has will influence my decision to read the book.
 

Southern Kross

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Interesting question.

Ideally I want all three and my favourite films tend to fall into this category. It's hard to narrow it down to one but if I really had to choose it would be aesthetics; that is, if you think of it in the broadest definition. By that I mean not simply how pretty the language or shots are but more importantly the atmosphere, tone, pacing, the feel of it and the emotional impression it makes; as [MENTION=13370]FunnyDigestion[/MENTION] said, it's the storytelling. An intriguing storyline is nothing if you don't feel the impact of what happens and experience the suspense/humour/sadness etc it is meant to evoke. The same goes for characters: they can be as complex and interesting as you like but if they don't draw me in or incite empathy how am I supposed to care what happens to them?

When I think of the movies or books I dislike, I realise that dislike is usually caused by how hollow and meaningless they feel. This has nothing to do with sentiment but only emotional truth.
 

gmanyo

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By that I mean not simply how pretty the language or shots are but more importantly the atmosphere, tone, pacing, the feel of it and the emotional impression it makes; as [MENTION=13370]FunnyDigestion[/MENTION] said, it's the storytelling.
I agree. I think that even if a movie or game has zero plot, it can still be made great with good aesthetics (this especially applies to the video games). That's why I like Fallout 3 so much even though I think the plot and characters and sometimes even gameplay suck. It is also why I love Yume Nikki, which has almost zero plot; you spend the entire game walking around a girl's creepy dreams. It's free, so I would suggest downloading it now.

The same goes for characters: they can be as complex and interesting as you like but if they don't draw me in or incite empathy how am I supposed to care what happens to them?
I disagree with this, though. I think that interesting characters can drive stories. I guess it's how one defines "aesthetic". When I think of aesthetics, I think of how a piece of art feels and evokes emotions through the atmosphere. I wouldn't necessarily count characters as part of that.

When I think of the movies or books I dislike, I realise that dislike is usually caused by how hollow and meaningless they feel.
Unless that is the emotion that they were actually trying to invoke.
 

Southern Kross

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I agree. I think that even if a movie or game has zero plot, it can still be made great with good aesthetics (this especially applies to the video games). That's why I like Fallout 3 so much even though I think the plot and characters and sometimes even gameplay suck. It is also why I love Yume Nikki, which has almost zero plot; you spend the entire game walking around a girl's creepy dreams. It's free, so I would suggest downloading it now.
Thanks for the suggestions, but like I said I prefer stories that contain all three elements; or at least is extremely good with 2 of them.

I disagree with this, though. I think that interesting characters can drive stories. I guess it's how one defines "aesthetic". When I think of aesthetics, I think of how a piece of art feels and evokes emotions through the atmosphere. I wouldn't necessarily count characters as part of that.
As someone who has studied both film and English literature I could not disagree more. Something has to sell that character to us. If you watched film where the main character was always in long shot or the editing always cut from them at crucial moments, you wouldn't care about them or identify with them no matter how interesting they were. Every choice made in cinematography, editing, lighting, makeup, costume, prop, set dressing, art directing, score etc is directing us how to feel about the characters (and narrative); sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously. Aesthetic elements tell us much of what we need to know about the character and why these things matter.

Unless that is the emotion that they were actually trying to invoke.
True. But even then, there would be meaning because it is attempting to reveal a truth.

I was thinking more of generic romantic comedies or paint-by-numbers action films, anyway.;)
 

gmanyo

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Thanks for the suggestions, but like I said I prefer stories that contain all three elements; or at least is extremely good with 2 of them.
I would still check out Yume Nikki. It actually does have characters in a sense; it's pretty interesting.
 

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I'm partial to characters, myself. All three are important in any narrative (at least in writing, movies, TV... I don't know much about games), but I find that I enjoy both TV and books more when I care about the characters. If they don't have any depth, it's hard to care about them.

Right now, my spouse and I are watching Lost on Netflix Watch Instantly, and I'm really afraid the ending is going to suck (DON'T tell me!!). But at the same time, the strength of that show really is its characters, I think, and watching them develop and learning their backstories had been enjoyable enough that even if the series finale is disappointing, it'll have been worth my while.
 

gmanyo

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Yeah, all three matter, but I feel that good characters or aesthetics drive a story or artwork much more than a plot can. Then again, Tom Clancy seems to have nothing but plot, and some people love that. To each his own, I guess.

Twin Peaks is a great show if you like characters. Also, it's directed by David Lynch, which is basass.
 

animenagai

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My order is plot, characters, aesthetics. A really good plot triumphs anything when it comes to storytelling for me. However, I am also really impatient when it comes to bad characters. I prefer great plots + mediocre characters over great characters + mediocre plot, but I just can't stand bad characters + anything.
 

Stigmata

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I'd say universally for me it's plot, character, aesthetics. While I see plot and character being heavily intertwined in the process of making an engaging story, aesthetics are so far down the list for me that it's almost completely irrelevant; No matter how good something looks, if the story isn't compelling, engaging, and somewhat original, it won't hold my interest for very long at all.
 

gmanyo

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I'd say universally for me it's plot, character, aesthetics. While I see plot and character being heavily intertwined in the process of making an engaging story, aesthetics are so far down the list for me that it's almost completely irrelevant; No matter how good something looks, if the story isn't compelling, engaging, and somewhat original, it won't hold my interest for very long at all.
Keep in mind that aesthetics means more than just visuals: it can mean the setting and the music as well as many other things. It's really the atmosphere, the feeling of a work. At the widest definition, this is a little unfair because it would almost include characters and plot in it. Not that I think this would change your opinion or anything.

Of course, I think most of the best works contain great characters, aesthetic, and plot (Pulp Fiction, Brazil, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind to name a few).
 

Kurt.Is.God

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I care about the concept which directs the story's aesthetics, characters and plot. I usually like books or movies because they carry out the concept well.

If a story fails, for me, it's because it fails to carry out the concept. If a pulpy story like the ones in Philip K. Dick books--let's say, a story about a psychic kid in a coma who is God and eats souls--had been written a hundred years before the existence of postmodernism, it would have been terrible. Or it might even lack a coherent story: in Gravity's Rainbow, the story (if you can call it that) is a series of fragmented but connected events which start right after a rocket has been launched, which begin to ALMOST make sense just as the book nears its "parabola", and which fall apart as it descends again--ending right before the rocket hits the ground.

The same with characters--usually, good characters help the concept, but if the characters are cardboard thin to serve the concept, that's alright. In Breakfast of Champions, the characters all serve to reinforce the "everyone is robots" epiphany moment of Dwayne Hoover.

I don't know why, but I think aesthetics might be the most important of the three. It might be that the aesthetic permeates the entire work. In Lolita, the actual "story" (I don't think that's the right word) is ABOUT the fate of the exaggerated fantasy which the narrator fabricates. Nabokov said that without the act of individual creation, the world would "rot and stink" like a corpse. So a storytelling style filled with hidden meanings and allusions is essential to establishing the concept. Thomas Pynchon's books, on the other hand, are filled with the same hidden meanings and allusions, but where Nabokov's characters are self-conscious about creating them, Pynchon's characters wonder if they may be looking too hard or going crazy. They're trying to look for the truth BEHIND the meaning, the rotting and stinking world. So the only way the story can be told is with that mood of paranoia.

A final thought: I think I can appreciate things which have concept and nothing else. I'm thinking of Borges's descriptions of fantasy worlds, which are sometimes just that and nothing else. Though maybe an interesting world is most closely related to aesthetics.

I might be terrible at organizing my thoughts.

Edit: I do think I'd be able to enjoy something if it had exceptionally good characters, plot, or aesthetics, even if it didn't have a good concept.
 

gmanyo

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Or if it just has a good aesthetic.

If we considered drugs trips to be "art", they would be 100% aesthetic.
 

LucidLegend1984

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It's called movie magic for a reason. One step that doesn’t fit in with the rest and a film is crap.
Good story (plot), Good aesthetics, Crap acting (characters) - Most modern films

Good acting, Good aesthetics, Crap Plot - Sundance. Not that there isn’t any good stories, I just don't know how many drug themes I can handle.

My order is Characters, Plot, and aesthetics. Character development is the bridge between your intended audience and the character.
The plot is the character's world in which they try to get out of or in some cases get in. This is the trip you want to take the audience on.
Aesthetics is a tossup. On the one hand you can have the most beautiful world imaginable but it has nothing to do with the character or the plot. Point in case the newer Star Wars. A planet of nothing but cityscapes? Who cares where they are we want light saber action!
Then you have movies like Avatar which the setting was practically a character itself.

I'm slowly getting into the film industry/business and I'm taking my INTJ personality along with me. I know what crap is and I know what good is....for me. Art is never 100% and nothing ever will be. My job as a film creator will be to bring a type of art to life and to enjoyed by all who witnesses it. Art is never perfect and that's what makes it perfect.
 

Kurt.Is.God

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I wouldn't call the aesthetics in Star Wars "good". Again, "good" for me ideally means they serve to advance the concept well. Though I guess I do think some things might have an absolutely irrelevant aesthetic which overrides everything else and gives it some merit. Star Wars is not an example. And neither is Avatar, in my opinion. I hated that movie.

Drug trips may be 10% concept as well, if you include things like cheesy cosmic love or "Atman is Brahman." I like drug trips.
 

gmanyo

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It's called movie magic for a reason. One step that doesn’t fit in with the rest and a film is crap.
Good story (plot), Good aesthetics, Crap acting (characters) - Most modern films

Good acting, Good aesthetics, Crap Plot - Sundance. Not that there isn’t any good stories, I just don't know how many drug themes I can handle.

My order is Characters, Plot, and aesthetics. Character development is the bridge between your intended audience and the character.
The plot is the character's world in which they try to get out of or in some cases get in. This is the trip you want to take the audience on.
Aesthetics is a tossup. On the one hand you can have the most beautiful world imaginable but it has nothing to do with the character or the plot. Point in case the newer Star Wars. A planet of nothing but cityscapes? Who cares where they are we want light saber action!
Then you have movies like Avatar which the setting was practically a character itself.

I'm slowly getting into the film industry/business and I'm taking my INTJ personality along with me. I know what crap is and I know what good is....for me. Art is never 100% and nothing ever will be. My job as a film creator will be to bring a type of art to life and to enjoyed by all who witnesses it. Art is never perfect and that's what makes it perfect.
I'm not sure you quite understand what is meant by "aesthetic". The Star Wars prequels, in my opinion, have total shit aesthetic. I guess I almost mean "atmosphere" more than aesthetic. Avatar was good looking aesthetically, kind of. But it was conventionally good looking and boring. I would almost say that it was kitsch. Also, I think that bad plot and characters can ruin an otherwise good aesthetic (there are some movies which are better with the sound off). On the other hand, good characters and plot can enhance the aesthetic. And vice versa, I think. They all influence each other.

Aesthetic, in my opinion, is definitely the most important. Otherwise, lyric-less music would be pointless.

Drug trips may be 10% concept as well, if you include things like cheesy cosmic love or "Atman is Brahman." I like drug trips.

So Kurt, I assume you liked The Stranger even though it was boring as shit?
 

Kurt.Is.God

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I liked The Stranger, and it wasn't quite as boring as shit. How is this related to drug trips?
 
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