What'cha Reading?

[niffer]

The Age of the Unthinkable by Joshua Cooper Ramo

my boyfriend read the Korean version and I'm reading the English version, which gives us a solution to discussing literature ^^ (he's ESL level 2 or 3 and can't even manage with Harry Potter)

[Salomé]

For a supposedly feminist book it sure doesn't seem to speak very highly of women. Blomkvist screwed, what, three of the main female characters? Berger, fine, but what was the point of the tryst with Cecilia Vanger? And Lisbeth?

I'm totally at a loss. Lisbeth really is about as deep as Lara Croft. What the hell? Why even have a rape subplot with Lisbeth at all? Some sort of analogy (w.r.t. Harriet)?

I don't get it.

That's because it's not actually a "feminist book".
Whether it was supposed to be one and just failed abysmally, I couldn't really say. Larsson the journalist, described himself as a feminist, but his fiction tells a different story.
I'm not sure why you're focusing on Blomkvist's promiscuity though. That doesn't really say anything about women. I agree that it was pretty incongruous that so many women would find such a spectacularly dull man so irresistible, but as a thinly veiled alter ego for the novelist, I suppose one can't begrudge the fellow his fantasies...
The rape subplot is motivation for Lisbeth's later acts of "revenge". I agree, though, there was much to be unsettled about - just not in the "right" ways.

[Nicodemus]

I suppose you think it's 'empowering'...

I just don't see a necessary connection between having sex and feminism.

Larsson the journalist, described himself as a feminist, but his fiction tells a different story.

The whole point, of course, is that his female characters, although they become victims of crimes committed by men, do not let themselves be victimized. They are strong-willed, they control their own lives.

[Salomé]

The whole point, of course, is that his female characters, although they become victims of crimes committed by men, do not let themselves be victimized. They are strong-willed, they controll their own lives.

Whose "whole point" would that be? The author's? I thought the author's motivation was completely irrelevant to you..?
I don't agree that this is the whole point at all. I think there are as many ways of reading these books as there are readers.

Also, most of the women in the books do not control their own lives. Even Salander is very much a victim and product of the system. And the way that she prevails is so unrealistic as to make a mockery of the possibility.

[Nicodemus]

Whose "whole point" would that be? The author's?

It is, I think, the whole point of the notion that the books are feminist books. I think those who believe them to be feminist books do so because of that factor.

I thought the author's motivation was completely irrelevant to you..?

I never said that; in fact, I implied the opposite more than once.

I don't agree that this is the whole point at all. I think there are as many ways of reading these books as there are readers.

Although not all ways are equally well founded, I agree in general.

Also, most of the women in the books do not control their own lives. Even Salander is very much a victim and product of the system. And the way that she prevails is so unrealistic as to make a mockery of the possibility.

Of course their fate has an impact on their lives. But a real victim would just give in to the oppression. If these were not feminist books, Harriet might have remained and died her brother's plastic doll, Salander would have given up in the face of Teleborian's methods, Berger would have quit the job because of the mails. I don't really care whether Larsson was a feminist writer, but I certainly got the impression that he was in favor of mentally strong women.

[Salomé]

It is, I think, the whole point of the notion that the books are feminist books. I think those who believe them to be feminist books do so because of that factor.

I think they do so because they haven't thought about it for very long and/or don't really understand feminism.

I never said that; in fact, I implied the opposite more than once.

ORLY

Personally, I think to understand an author's motivation to write is less important than what he chooses to write.

It is certainly irrelevant.

?

Of course their fate has an impact on their lives. But a real victim would just give in to the oppression. If these were not feminist books, Harriet might have remained and died her brother's plastic doll, Salander would have given up in the face of Teleborian's methods, Berger would have quit the job because of the mails. I don't really care whether Larsson was a feminist writer, but I certainly got the impression that he was in favor of mentally strong women.

That would not make for a very interesting narrative.
Does that mean that rapist fantasies where the woman fights back are also feminist because "at least she has some spirit!" ?
One can equally argue that they are misogynistic books, given their graphic depiction of violence against women within a genre that is designed to entertain /titillate rather than to inform. Personally, I think they are neither. I just think they are absurdly overrated.

[Nicodemus]

ORLY

Yes, really. When I said that his motivation "is certainly irrelevant", we were talking about the substance of the Salander character; and for that, his motivation is irrelevant. I fail to see how the other quote could be misread.

I also said that:

But you are talking with me, not with someone for whom there is nothing outside the text [...].

Does that mean that rapist fantasies where the woman fights back are also feminist because "at least she has some spirit!" ?

I suppose they could be.

One can equally argue that they are misogynistic books, given their graphic depiction of violence against women within a genre that is designed to entertain /titillate rather than to inform.

One could at least try. It would not be very convincing, though.

[Donna Cecilia]

The Wind in the Willows, by Kenneth Grahame

[Within]

Waiting for the Barbarians by J.M. Coetzee.

[Nijntje]

The Worst Date Ever: War Crimes, Hollywood Heart-throbs and Other Abominations - Jane Bussman (it sounds horrible and fluffy but is about Joseph Kony's LRA and war crimes in Uganda)