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Why do people like Romeo and Juliet?

Elfboy

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I just don't get it. it is absolutely the most stupid and pathetic storyline and characters I've ever come across in my entire life
 

SilkRoad

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I'm actually somewhat inclined to agree (though not quite so vehemently).

I also don't like Wuthering Heights, and people think that's terribly romantic. I'd say, if passion is about being emotionally and physically abusive, you can keep it... For some reason a lot of people think it's wonderful that sexual passion can drive you to do stupid things. Don't get me wrong, I think passion can be great, but not when it drives people to be destructive.
 

Elfboy

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I'm actually somewhat inclined to agree (though not quite so vehemently).

I also don't like Wuthering Heights, and people think that's terribly romantic. I'd say, if passion is about being emotionally and physically abusive, you can keep it... For some reason a lot of people think it's wonderful that sexual passion can drive you to do stupid things. Don't get me wrong, I think passion can be great, but not when it drives people to be destructive.

is it an Sx/So or So/Sx thing? I think we Sp doms just don't get it. we're much more able to be like "um....violence? self sacrifice? abuse? I'm outta here"
 

SilkRoad

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is it an Sx/So or So/Sx thing? I think we Sp doms just don't get it. we're much more able to be like "um....violence? self sacrifice? abuse? I'm outta here"

Could be. I would be inclined to think Sx-first, but that might be a stereotype...

I think self-sacrifice is good, actually...I think it's a myth that Sp-firsts are totally not into that. But not self-sacrifice to an insane degree (though I do believe that in some cases at least self-sacrifice for the greater good is the right thing to do.)

However, equating abuse and manipulation and general psycho-ness with "passion" kind of sucks, IMHO. I'm probably talking more about Wuthering Heights than Romeo and Juliet, though. I think R and J were mainly a pair of dumb hormonal kids who would eventually have discovered they had little in common and didn't like each other that much!

I do like romance, but backed up with a good basis of realism. :D
 

Elfboy

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Could be. I would be inclined to think Sx-first, but that might be a stereotype...
I think self-sacrifice is good, actually...I think it's a myth that Sp-firsts are totally not into that. But not self-sacrifice to an insane degree (though I do believe that in some cases at least self-sacrifice for the greater good is the right thing to do.)
However, equating abuse and manipulation and general psycho-ness with "passion" kind of sucks, IMHO. I'm probably talking more about Wuthering Heights than Romeo and Juliet, though. I think R and J were mainly a pair of dumb hormonal kids who would eventually have discovered they had little in common and didn't like each other that much!
I do like romance, but backed up with a good basis of realism. :D

well, Sp doms who are into it are certainly into it within limits.
 

Ingrid in grids

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I'm probably talking more about Wuthering Heights than Romeo and Juliet, though. I think R and J were mainly a pair of dumb hormonal kids who would eventually have discovered they had little in common and didn't like each other that much!

This has a degree of truth. It all depends on your interpretation of the play. Many think it was Shakespeare's intention to highlight what can happen to young lovers who run away with passion, and the irresponsibility of a number of characters who should have acted as mentors and given more guidance. After all, R+J is a Tragedy, not Romance. The result of the young passionate love is disastrous.

As for Wuthering Heights, to me that appeals much more as a Romance. Whenever I think of WH I think of this line: "He's more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same." The two lovers share a bond that is extraordinary... obsessive and almost violent... Aspects of their love is disturbing, but to me it stands out as the example of love at its absolute extreme in literature. The love between them both almost literally has the power to kill them both.. they can't bare to be together in life, and yet they can't bare to be apart. It's like their love reaches beyond life and the grave.

i think one way in which people can't relate to Catherine and Heathcliff as lovers is because their relationship is strangely asexual. It exceeds conventional romantic love and even sexual expression. While it's all violent and difficult, it's still intensely enduring. Very much extreme, true and yet totally intoxicating and debilitating love.

Of course these are all my opinions on the play and book...
 

SilkRoad

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This has a degree of truth. It all depends on your interpretation of the play. Many think it was Shakespeare's intention to highlight what can happen to young lovers who run away with passion, and the irresponsibility of a number of characters who should have acted as mentors and given more guidance. After all, R+J is a Tragedy, not Romance. The result of the young passionate love is disastrous.

As for Wuthering Heights, to me that appeals much more as a Romance. Whenever I think of WH I think of this line: "He's more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same." The two lovers share a bond that is extraordinary... obsessive and almost violent... Aspects of their love is disturbing, but to me it stands out as the example of love at its absolute extreme in literature. The love between them both almost literally has the power to kill them both.. they can't bare to be together in life, and yet they can't bare to be apart. It's like their love reaches beyond life and the grave.

i think one way in which people can't relate to Catherine and Heathcliff as lovers is because their relationship is strangely asexual. It exceeds conventional romantic love and even sexual expression. While it's all violent and difficult, it's still intensely enduring. Very much extreme, true and yet totally intoxicating and debilitating love.

Of course these are all my opinions on the play and book...

Yeah, I also like your interpretation of R&J, in terms of the role the other characters play, too.

It's been a long time since I read/saw either of these works. I'd like to read Wuthering Heights again, for sure. I consider myself...enough of a romantic, even quite a lot of romantic in some ways, but I basically remember thinking the Catherine/Heathcliff thing was annoying and nasty. ;) I'm sure it's a lot more nuanced than that. But taken to an extreme, for sure.

I just think true love is enduring - and hard work - and loyal, and kind...also fun and passionate, but let's face it, passion in real life will probably burn out to a certain degree at least. You want someone who you can still be best friends and partners with after years and years, even if you're not into each other sexually to the extent that you were when younger.
 

SilkRoad

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I do actually wonder if Cathy/Heathcliff's love is supposed to be more metaphoric or symbolic. As Maddy mentioned, it sort of goes beyond the usual tropes of romance, whichever way you come at it. I really should read that again.
 

Speed Gavroche

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You simply don't like what is emo. And i don't like too. i tried to read Romeo & Juliette for the pas and I gave up at the balcony scene.
 

chickpea

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i haven't read it since high school, i thought it was a good story though. but i'm a 4, i think dying together is romantic :)

i remember i had the sparknotes version with the modern day translation next to the original. my teacher thought i was so smart.
 

Thalassa

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I'm honestly not a huge Shakespeare person. As someone who majored in lit, I kind of thought "oh god, not another one" when I encountered a student or professor who was a self-proclaimed Shakespeare buff.

I also think that Jane Austen is overblown in a similar manner. It can get on my nerves, but it's just my personal thing. The way some people talk about Jane Austen you'd think they didn't know other books existed from that time period.

Anyway, when it comes to Shakespeare I prefer his sonnets, and I guess Hamlet is probably his best play, IMO. I don't think people committing suicide for love is romantic, especially when they're only teenagers, but taken in the context of the historical situation, Shakespeare was actually making a very good point...you have to look at the broader historical context and the social commentary he was making rather than the love story, if you want a mature understanding of the play, in order to appreciate why it's timeless.
 

kyuuei

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I think I like it because it does feel a bit real... Teenagers make really dumb, stupid decisions all the time, in the thought that they are in love. Whether they truly are or not, no one will ever know, but the way they act you can't help but think they are at least in that moment. Of course, as an adult you have to be rational and logical. "Maybe they were crazy in love, but..." It's sort of indulging--you're not really allowed to be tragically stupidly in love in real life because--duh--it leads to stupid, awful scenarios that retard the love itself. But you can sort of indulge in these two teenagers and their stupidity.. at least, that's how I took the play. The death is dramatic, and to me, it symbolizes that there is no way a love like that can last--either death or life itself will erode it away, because it's too extreme and there's no balance.

I suppose, to me, the messages are clear, and that's what makes it such a great play:
1. Adults put their thoughts and beliefs over their teenagers, and it can lead to destructive behavior.
2. The mentors throughout the play were complacent.
3. There was a raw, passionate romance indulged in the most extreme way.

All of that being said, I enjoyed watching the movies more than reading it. It's made to be seen in action, so it sort of sucked just reading it. You didn't get the passion.
 

Qlip

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[MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION]. *nod of agreement*

I'm not a R&J scholar by any means. It's a very romantic story. It has a lot to say as to the nature of love, and more to say about the society that was very restrictive on the individual. Joseph Campbell wrote a book, I can't remember the title.. It was primarily about chivalry and French Arthurian romance and how those stories were about individual expression in a highly religious and constraining society. I see a similar sentiment in R&J.
 

mujigay

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I found Romeo and Juliet immensely entertaining, actually. I believed that Shakespeare's intent was to show the dangers of two young, stupid people running away with their passions. The hilarious thing was, my freshman English teacher took the whole thing completely seriously. She truly believed that it was romantic. So did the rest of the class, although many laughs were to be had when we watched the film versions, both the 1968 and that modern one with Leonardo Dicaprio or whoever it was.

So the problem, I suppose, is not the story itself, but the way certain people choose to interpret it. But then, it is hard to like a play where everyone is boneheaded. I remember loathing Julius Caesar for precisely that reason: every single character was insufferable.
 

Thalassa

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I found Romeo and Juliet immensely entertaining, actually. I believed that Shakespeare's intent was to show the dangers of two young, stupid people running away with their passions. The hilarious thing was, my freshman English teacher took the whole thing completely seriously. She truly believed that it was romantic. So did the rest of the class, although many laughs were to be had when we watched the film versions, both the 1968 and that modern one with Leonardo Dicaprio or whoever it was.

So the problem, I suppose, is not the story itself, but the way certain people choose to interpret it. But then, it is hard to like a play where everyone is boneheaded. I remember loathing Julius Caesar for precisely that reason: every single character was insufferable.

I think Shakespeare's intent was to show the stupidity of a closed-minded society like Qlip said...that these young people were basically a product of the environment...that the adults around them didn't exactly drive them to it, but like, yeah...kind of. It's a statement about restrictive societies and feuding, not about stupid young people, or the play wouldn't have lasted this many centuries.
 

Thalassa

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Oh and P.S. I love stories where every character is insufferable! That's why I like Agatha Christie mysteries and Russian Realism...it's totally human nature, all people are flawed in some way, and the black comedy aspect is to take it to an extreme.

Still not a fan of Shakespeare, in particular, though.
 

Noon

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It's a statement about restrictive societies and feuding, not about stupid young people, or the play wouldn't have lasted this many centuries.

That's what I like about R&J too. Really one of the only things, because I hated having to read it.

The prime message I got was in regards to youth, innocence, passion and the individual's true desires being stamped out by the repressiveness of greater society and all of its stupid formalities. It was "romantic" at least in the sense that R&J chose to die together, holding on to their dreams, instead of to submit to the same boot that crushed everyone else around them.

On the other side though, yeah, the way they went about it left much to be desired.
 

mujigay

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I think Shakespeare's intent was to show the stupidity of a closed-minded society like Qlip said...that these young people were basically a product of the environment...that the adults around them didn't exactly drive them to it, but like, yeah...kind of. It's a statement about restrictive societies and feuding, not about stupid young people, or the play wouldn't have lasted this many centuries.

Oh I don't disagree that the stupidity of a close-minded society was the overarching theme of the piece. But I think the tendency of hot-headedness and quick judgement was a point that Shakespeare criticized. And I felt obliged to point it out because I'm still irritated that my English teacher never did. I'm insufferable that way.
 

Thalassa

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Oh I don't disagree that the stupidity of a close-minded society was the overarching theme of the piece. But I think the tendency of hot-headedness and quick judgement was a point that Shakespeare criticized. And I felt obliged to point it out because I'm still irritated that my English teacher never did. I'm insufferable that way.

I understand. I hated one of my English professors in college. Pretty sure she was an INFJ...she would get tears in her eyes and talk about how sensitive she was to other people's suffering, but then she was really inclined to be nit-picky about dumb things like minor grammatical errors and would give beginning of the class quizzes so she could shave points off of your grade if you weren't in class the moment the class begin to adore her lectures in all their glory. She also hated to be contradicted...I was torn between ISFJ and INFJ for her, but really going on about her own sensitivity in class seems more stereotypically NF to me, and also that with one assignment (this was like...a 300's level required boring non-fiction essay writing class) that we "add something new to academia." She kept saying other people's ideas weren't original enough and kept demanding they change it to something *she* had never heard of; I finally settled on writing about the Daily Show and their impact on young voters since she was kind of old and not really savvy with popular culture; the bitch drove me up the wall. I argued with her more than once. She was also one of those self-proclaimed "Shakespeare buffs." :dry:
 
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