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The Mentalist Vs Lie to Me?

Paisley

Strolling Through The Shire
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For anyone who watches both of these shows with as much intrigue as I do, what can you say about the similar plot lines? Kal vs Pat? One is the ISTJ to verify truth (kal) based on science and the other is an INFJ (Patrick Jane) who verifies truth based on huge mental leaps or precognition. Two very interesting perspectives on finding out the truth and deducing human behaviour, although extremely similar shows that compliment each other. Any thoughts on my analysis? I think ISTJ and INFJ sums it up nicely, thinker versus intuiter, even science versus faith in the outworking of the mental deductions made in both shows. I like the Mentalist better, much more fun for me, I think Lie to Me has an expiration date.
 

TenebrousReflection

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I also enjoy both those shows, but The Mentalist is a far more enjoyable show to watch in my opinion, and its probably becase Jane is much easier to relate to for me than Lightman. On the surface, both shows have a lot to do with observation, but on the human side of it, it seems to me that Jane's observations and intutions are more based on subconscious and conscious acts and the inferances that can be made from them and Lightman's are more on the involuntary reactions. It does seem to be a pretty good contrast between S and N approaching a similar problem in different ways to get a similar result. Beyond those surface appearacnes, what I like about Lie to Me is its focus on the questions of ethics and lying/deciet and how sometimes not knowing the complete truth may be the best thing and if someoen knows the truth, deciding when its best to not say anything. What I like about The Mentalist (in addition to finding Jane such a likeable character) is the dialog and character interaction and the supporting team on the show as well as being able to balance lighthearted and serious moments. The mentalist being more of a baisc crime procedural with a twist also gives it more room for espisode variety, while Lie to Me feels more forced into focusing on certain things every episode, but they have done a good job of keeping it interesting so far.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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I love you, Tim Roth, but your show sucks.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
For anyone who watches both of these shows with as much intrigue as I do, what can you say about the similar plot lines? Kal vs Pat? One is the ISTJ to verify truth (kal) based on science and the other is an INFJ (Patrick Jane) who verifies truth based on huge mental leaps or precognition. Two very interesting perspectives on finding out the truth and deducing human behaviour, although extremely similar shows that compliment each other. Any thoughts on my analysis? I think ISTJ and INFJ sums it up nicely, thinker versus intuiter, even science versus faith in the outworking of the mental deductions made in both shows. I like the Mentalist better, much more fun for me, I think Lie to Me has an expiration date.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think Patrick Jane is INFJ? I thought he was one too but I have heard many arguments say that he is ENTP. Well, both are N dominant and have FeTi either in auxilliary and tertiary positions. How do we differentiate between the two in how they read people?
 

Paisley

Strolling Through The Shire
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Simple answer, Jane is INFJ because he's always in his head and he's always listening, and not thinking his thoughts out loud. ENTP's come to their conclusions by saying them, not internalizing them, the whole Ni versus Ne differentiation. He's DOMINANT Ni and that's it, it's simple really. Patrick Jane has to tell someone what he's already come up with and share what he already knows (his step ahead), whereas an ENTP will discover the answer by talking it through. INFJ is subtle, and ENTP is overt, and Jane is the former.

ENTP's pick the brains of their peers for everything and make their next move by asking everyone for advice in a group, wheras Jane is off on his own all the time, doing his own thing always a step ahead with his intuitive leap (like Columbo playing dumb), always wanting to isolate the group from what he's doing and manipulate situations away from the group, without their consent, all by himself, like the loner INFJ. "With" the group, but not "of" the group. He's a very typical INFJ in already coming to a conclusion and then manipulating circumstances to prove the intuitive leap, while being very covert, subtle and unsuspecting, which is NOT a trait of ENTP's at all. ENTP's are too OVERT in their approach (not that INFJ's can't be), from what I've read and from experience. Notice how he lets people talk and will only interupt when a point is needed to be made? ENTP's are dismissive to everyone they think are dumb and not with the program and will go on and on and on, and Jane is not like that, he hears everyone out, as that's the whole way of uncovering the truth, by listening. ENTP's like the concrete, and don't deal well in the grey areas of life, and often get hung up on minutia which is manifest in a lack of follow through, ie, time to start a new project. Also, ENTP's are much more capable of letting go of the past than INFJ's who can't let go of the past for the life of them like Jane when it comes to Red John. Notice how he won all that money when he went gambling, and then thoughtfully bought everyone something they wanted, and then anonymously donated the rest to charity? Super INFJ loner mentality where money isn't as important as the greater good, a means to an end, not an end in itself. Patrick Jane also avoids argumentation and debate and attempts to replace it with dialogue and discussion when talking to his peers, but allows chaos and debate when talking to suspects. The strong differentiation between those who are with me and how I treat them and those that are suspect. It may be confusing because INFJ's and ENTP's are both very dismissive to people, with statements like, "No, it's this, nothing more." Finally, back to my main point towards INFJ is the dominant Ni and secondary Fe and prophetic characteristic that goes in hand (probably what you were first thinking IDK) with all INFJ's!

So Jane can be summed up in Ni, loner, can't let go of the past, listener, idealist, giving, simplistic, quiet, in headspace, empathetic, relational system analyzer, can't be fooled, humanitarian. Like what it says here:

INFJ Profile

Anyone have anything to say about Cal from Lie To Me being an ISTJ with the hard sciences? Is he more of an INTJ than ISTJ? More of a science builder than a science analyzer? Cal sniffs out the truth like a detective with cold hard science, as in the ISTJ, so that's why I staked my claim on ISTJ. Your point TReflection, about the science becoming repetitive is exactly what I meant by having an expiration date. Unless Lie To Me comes up with a more genuine macroplot, the show will get stale and dry because we've all seen Sherlock Holmes and CSI.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
Thank you Paisley! My initial reaction was that he was INFJ. That's so awesome. Now I know why I thought Jane and I acted fairly similar when it comes to reading people.
 

Paisley

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Glad you responded IDK, I was wondering what your thoughts on my analysis would be like, but I guess you agree with it, so thank you for responding and for the approval. After I read it over, I realized I left a few thoughts out but adding them without anymore questions would simply belabor what's written.

I guess the only thing I would like to emphasize with this analysis is to read over the argument I made, and then read over the INFJ profile, it's kinda shocking the similarities on all counts, especially the very very last paragraph. Jane is a very balanced INFJ.
 
G

Glycerine

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Glad you responded IDK, I was wondering what your thoughts on my analysis would be like, but I guess you agree with it, so thank you for responding and for the approval. After I read it over, I realized I left a few thoughts out but adding them without anymore questions would simply belabor what's written.

I guess the only thing I would like to emphasize with this analysis is to read over the argument I made, and then read over the INFJ profile, it's kinda shocking the similarities on all counts, especially the very very last paragraph. Jane is a very balanced INFJ.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/popular-culture-type/12946-mentalist.html
hmmm... I am just curious what you think of the other people's argument in the other thread? I was sort of convinced the he was ENTP after that thread but I thought you made a much more thorough argument than the people in the other thread.
 

Paisley

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No one on that link provided any real argument, there's just a bunch of statements and hunches, but I responded to hopefully get some more thoughts on it.
 

charme

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infj
Jane is ENTP, not INFJ.
I am INFJ and drawn to ENTP, which is a "natural partner" for an INFJ. At one time I too thought the character was INFJ--but no--ENTP.
 

Paisley

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Jane is ENTP, not INFJ.
I am INFJ and drawn to ENTP, which is a "natural partner" for an INFJ. At one time I too thought the character was INFJ--but no--ENTP.

Hahaha, again, another argument for ENTP without any justification for it. Mine still carries more weight. Come up with an argument before you write in. Please attempt to prove me wrong using evidence from the show to support your answer.

(I should've been a teacher)
 

charme

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Hahaha, again, another argument for ENTP without any justification for it. Mine still carries more weight. Come up with an argument before you write in. Please attempt to prove me wrong using evidence from the show to support your answer.

(I should've been a teacher)


Sorry. I didn’t realize a well-written reply was required before writing in. My hunch and opinion is Jane is entp. He presents that way to me, but he is a fictional character, so we’ll never know for sure…unless the writer tells us one way or another. The character attracted me and I like him, so I wanted to think he was like me—infj. But, he’s different in a lot of ways. He is similar to my entp male friends. Mentally quick and scarily accurate in their ability to understand a situation or a person. I, too, have that ability, but I’m not as quick to act. My tendency is to ponder and ruminate over what-I-know-I-know. Jane acts quickly. He knows what he knows and acts.
I did not see the first few episodes of The Mentalist, but from what I understand, Jane had a shady past. I saw a flashback episode and his scamming behavior reminds of specific entps that I know. Also, his open pleasure (his smiley face) when “bad” guys are busted, isn’t much like how I would respond. (Sorry, to keep using myself as an example, but I’m the only infj that I know. Sad, huh?) I tend to have fantasies about bringing bad guys to justice, but knowing me and my experience with catching people in the wrong (to a much lesser degree than the crimes that are on The Mentalist), I can’t feel great pleasure in their undoing. I feel sadness for them and for their choices and their past that led them to wrong actions. Anyway, I am rambling now. I do not have time to write up an argument—or choose not to take the time. I’m picky about each word that I use when writing, and I can’t be stressed about that right now. Actually, I don’t have an argument…this is just what I think.
Oh, one other thing—an “infj” thing about Jane. His escape to the couch to sleep/mediate. Very infj. Except his couch is out in the open, surrounded by others.
 

Paisley

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Well, I applaud your attempt, it being your second post and all, yet there's little validity to your misgivings about Jane being INFJ. Random experiential info based solely on yourself holds little weight when discussing types. Example, my friends like that, so he's like that, or I'm not like that, so he's not like that, which has very little to do with typology.

My ENTP friends are usually really quick about facts and thoughts, but far from it when it comes to relationships, people, and feelings; yet I'd only use that to corroborate existing facts of ENTP's after I've made a point, and not concrete evidence in itself.

ENTP's and INFJ's complete each others existential gaps, yet dominant Ne with secondary Ti outweighing dominant Ni with secondary Fe? No way. ENTP's are BIG IDEA people and need a concrete vision to slay away at, a Mentalist working for CBI to catch your loved ones killer, does not add up to ENTP in my mind.

Dominant Ni (INFJ)

Introverted intuitives, INFJs enjoy a greater clarity of perception of inner, unconscious processes than all but their INTJ cousins. Just as SP types commune with the object and "live in the here and now" of the physical world, INFJs readily grasp the hidden psychological stimuli behind the more observable dynamics of behavior and affect. Their amazing ability to deduce the inner workings of the mind, will and emotions of others gives INFJs their reputation as prophets and seers. Unlike the confining, routinizing nature of introverted sensing, introverted intuition frees this type to act insightfully and spontaneously as unique solutions arise on an event by event basis.

Dominant Ne (ENTP)

ENTPs are nothing if not unique. Brave new associations flow freely from the unconscious into the world of the living. Making, discovering and developing connections between and among two or more of anything is virtually automatic. The product of intuition is merely an icon of process; ENTPs are in the business of change, improvement, experimentation.

The attraction Extraverted iNtuition has toward the real and physical amounts to a cosmic non sequitur: theory is drawn to practice. Such encounters are clearly puzzling. Both parties--the intuitor and the realist--are aware of a xenic quality in their meeting, with reactions ranging from recoil to reverie.

Do Patrick Jane's answers and deductions seem chaotic and puzzling, even to himself (ENTP), or are they precise, specific and premeditated (INFJ) in the end?

This is the main difference here, the Ne versus Ni differentiation. Ne is making it up as he goes along, whereas Ni knows very clearly from the start. The more I go over the types, the more clearly Patrick Jane falls into INFJ.
 

charme

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Well, Paisley, I probably don’t belong here (either) if it’s unacceptable to share thoughts and gut feelings without a neatly verbalized post, complete with cut/paste information and “facts”. If that’s required, I get enough of that in my work with my concrete, literal-thinking, and fact-loving co-workers. I will look elsewhere.

(btw, I am new, but I do understand dominate Ni belonging to INFJ—thanks for the explanation, but I’m not that unaware)

Long live The Mentalist! I’ll be enjoying it from where I am…and hope you will as well, Paisley.
 

Paisley

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My post was an invitation for more discussion, not a put down. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts, not less, I even asked some questions to get your view on it. It's a great show, and I'm all caught up on what's happened this season, haven't missed an episode. If you feel slighted, I'm only arguing your LOGIC not who you ARE.

I have a bunch of concrete literal thinking fact loving co-workers and it drives me nuts too!!! I hear ya. On the forums, I like to debate the logic of the points though, more to correct and sharpen my own thinking than yours. So, by all means, feel free to continue the discourse, it's good to hear from you.
 

Paisley

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Why do you like Lie to Me better, and what's your mbti type?
 
R

Riva

Guest
Patrick is a INFJ.
He analyzes situations and closes cases based on people's personalities. He reads people like reading a book.
 

Aleksei

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I actually think Lightman is ISTP, he's far too unpredictable to be an ISTJ. ISTJs are essentially built in the mold of a Swiss watch.

Jane, I think, is a former ENTP turned into an INFJ shell of his former self by his wife's death and his desire for revenge.
 
P

Phantonym

Guest
Alrighty then, I just started to watch The Mentalist (sorry, I'm not going to say anything about Lie to Me). I'm not really that interested in typing the characters at this point but I was wondering, is it just me, or does anybody else find the show completely predictable? Don't get me wrong, I love crime shows, can't get enough of them, and while I do enjoy watching the show, it's simply...not that interesting to watch when it comes to the clues and "who did it", it's like a kid's jigsaw puzzle. I keep watching in hopes that it will get better. I feel a bit disappointed, to be honest, but it really bothers me enough to come and whine about it on an Internet forum. :blush:
 
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