Random Star Wars Thoughts

[Totenkindly]

People Keep Picking at My ‘Rise of Skywalker’ Scab - The Ringer

Yes I'm aware of the inherent irony surrounding an article regarding ROS about hating articles that continue the conversation about ROS.... but i identify with it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Yoda and Darth Plagueis - enneagram 5

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Form IV, Ataru (Obi-Wan) vs. Form VII, Juyo (Darth Maul). Qui Gon was also an Ataru practitioner. Ataru is a highly athletic form that relies on mostly offensive fighting as opposed to defensive moves. Due to the nature of the form, practitioners do best in shorter duels with lots of room to move around. Qui-Gon had kept Maul on the defensive, but by the time they reached the smaller room with the pit, he was exhausted and in a confined space which limited his movements. It was then that Qui-Gon's lack of strong defense allowed Maul to best him. Obi-Wan ultimately was only able to win using Ataru by tapping into his anger and by sheer luck and the element of surprise. Although he would eventually become a far greater duelist than Maul, it's clear Maul was the better fighter early on:

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Form III, Soresu (Obi-Wan) and Form V, Shien (Anakin)/Form IV, Ataru (Anakin with two blades) vs. Form II, Makashi (Darth Tyrannus). Obi-Wan learned Soresu, a defensive form, after realizing the limitations of Ataru in his duel with Maul. Obi-Wan was considered one of the greatest practitioners of Soresu, though ultimately Dooku's greater experience with Form II allowed him to disarm both opponents. Anakin's Form V, while a more aggressive form than II or III, is better suited for deflecting blaster bolts than for lightsaber duels. Even when switching to Ataru, he was still bested by Dooku's conservation of energy and calculated, surgical strikes. Yoda, who eventually stalemates with Dooku, was a master of Form IV, Ataru. Perfect form for a smaller duelist, as the large strokes and fast acrobatics more than compensate for the size limitations. This is probably why Ataru was also so well suited for Ahsoka Tano.

Makashi was developed specifically with Christopher Lee in mind. First, it suited his experience with fencing, and second, it was a less physically demanding form for the elder actor. Form V was of course designed to match Anakin's personality and his tendency toward aggression and anger during fights.:

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Form IV Ataru (Yoda) vs. Form VII? Juyo (Sidious): questionmark because Sidious had apparently mastered all the forms, so he was very likely mixing some elements in with his Juyo here. He also uses Dun Moch, sith taunting. It might have worked on a less seasoned opponent, but Yoda deflects burns like he deflects force lightning:

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Form V, Djem So variant (Vader) vs. Multiple Forms (Luke): one of the first forms designed for the SW universe, and based on heavier European longsword fighting techniques than on eastern influences like some of the other forms. Djem So was the variant of form V which emphasized lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat over deflection of blaster bolts, although the basic stances and movements were largely the same in both variants.

Luke seems to be using mostly Form V in their 1st duel, but he probably picked up a bit of Form IV Ataru from Yoda, and possibly some Form III from Obi-Wan, as well as Form I (the basics of lightsaber use), as he seems to incorporate more defense and acrobatics into his second duel with Vader (likely having realized Ataru could provide a leg up against physically stronger opponents like Vader). However, the minimal use of footwork on his part as well as his use of the blade suggests Djem So was aways his primary style.

Form V is similar to Form II in that both emphasize conservation of movement and precise, abrupt movements of the blade, however unlike V's basis in medieval longsword fighting, II was developed from rapier combat styles. Thus V emphasizes more slashing while II would emphasize more stabbing. Also notice how the blocking moves of Form V rely on sending the energy of the attack back at the attacker (whereas a Form II deflection/block seems to be more focused on the II practitioner sidestepping their opponent's line of attack. Vader uses this form V deflection to knock Luke down early on in the first duel. Note Luke's kick to knock Vader down the stairs in their second duel. Overall his swings and slashes and footwork also seem a bit more acrobatic and animated here, which is why I think he had incorporated some IV and III into his V by the time of the second fight.

Also, notice how both Sidious and Vader rely heavily on Dun Moch (sith taunting to get under an opponent's skin) heavily in an attempt to throw Luke off his game:

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Form IV Ataru (Ahsoka Tano) vs Form II Makashi (Asajj Ventriss): Ataru was a perfect form for Ahsoka with her limited stature and smaller frame. Asajj practices a 2 saber variant of her master Dooku's form. Ahsoka is likely one of the most gifted lightsaber duelists of all time. This duel is from Season 1, so we're talking about a a 14 year old or 15 year old Padawan holding her own against a very powerful and very skilled sith assassin trained by Dooku, who was also known as one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi Order, rivalled only by Yoda and Mace Windu.

I like how Ventriss shares her master's conservation of movement. If you look, she intitally is using very limited, conservative footwork, along with precisely placed swings. Ahsoka's Ataru puts her at a disadvantage in this space, as it's a form that needs wide room to allow for the acrobatics and wide slashing attacks. All the more remarkable that she held her own against Ventriss even with those handicaps placed on her in this fight. According to Wikipedia, Ahsoka also used Form V to augment her form IV, (likely at her master Anakin's urging, I am guessing). It seems to benefit her more when she is matched with opponents roughly the same size as her, such as Ventriss here or brainwashed Padawan Barris Offee in a later duel.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Form III Soresu (Obi-Wan) vs Form V Shien/Djem So (Anakin):

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Have you watched The Clone Wars? I think they did a good job of working politics into it in an interesting way. And they actually gave Padme a lot more to do in the show.

The politics in the PT wouldn’t be bad if it felt more connected to the plot and organic. Lucas just handled it awkwardly

Yeah, I did watch the show. I also liked how the references to other things in the Star Wars universe seemed organic rather than fan-serivcey. That is, it made sense in universe. Like the use of Y-wings and Z-95s by the clones, for instance.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Surprised I am that recognize me you did not. Head of the Jedi council I was. General in grand army I was. Well documented it is.

 

[Totenkindly]

Form III Soresu (Obi-Wan) vs Form V Shien/Djem So (Anakin):

That's not really the "full" fight, they cut elements of it out rather than splicing a full edit together. (And they dropped the coolest line... "You will try." ~ anakin.)

But I do find the "style" discussions more interesting, to see how the styles interact with each other in a combat situation. I think sometimes brute aggression can run over most things, especially if the practitioner is only average in application of a defensive game, but if they are skilled enough and the style flexible enough...

Most of my understanding comes from learning almost all the character styles on Street Fighter 2, but it was a great game in terms of having very distinct fighting styles most of which could beat the others in the hands of a skilled practitioner, even if some styles were more accessible to less experienced players. (Obvious one -- a total n00b could do a lot of damage with Blanka to an average or slightly better than average player, which was annoying.... although an experienced player knew BLanka's moves well enough to counter them and/or work around them.) Dhalsim was interesting in that he LOOKED intimidating if both players were novices, but if the opponent was a bit skilled, Dhalsim usually would get trashed because he's kind of soft and his entire strategy is keeping enemies away from his body; and yet if you had an actual good player with Dhalsim who understood the timing of his movies, he could absolutely trash his opponents once he got the character's toolbox down to pure instinct, since even if you got inside his zone there were a few moves that would render it useless and/or still press the attack after suckering them in. But you did have to be good with the timing.

It was just a nicely tuned game.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

But I do find the "style" discussions more interesting, to see how the styles interact with each other in a combat situation. I think sometimes brute aggression can run over most things, especially if the practitioner is only average in application of a defensive game, but if they are skilled enough and the style flexible enough...
.

Obviously it's not an exact science but I like that it's all based in real world forms of martial arts. I've sometimes seen the criticism that the fights in the OT weren't choreographed enough or that the lightsaber forms were rudimentary or not based in any real world fighting style, yet even then they had a coordinator working with the actors and basing the style on European longsword fighting (itself a valid and legitimate martial art that was honed over centuries with many instructional texts written in the late medieval and renaissance periods) with what looks like a bit of oriental influence in some of the stances as well. Reminds me of the old argument that boxing isn't a martial art because they don't even use their legs, even though footwork is a huge part of boxing.

There are even fans who have devoted themselves to actually learning these forms and using them in cosplay fight tournaments. Personally, I wouldn't mind learning some Makashi (which is basically just fencing with some modifications) or Djem So (loosely based on aforementioned medieval longsword fighting)

To be fair, it is a little silly since most of these forms were retroactively named after people studies the duels in the films--and the characters usually aren't using a pure variant of any one form, although I suppose in the real world it's not uncommon for people to learn and incorporate multiple forms of martial arts into their fighting.

It is somewhat rare though in fictional media to see completely different forms and styles used against one another. That's actually something we see a ton in SW, though we tend to assume everyone just learned the same thing.

A good example I can think of from outside of SW is the duel in Rob Roy. Liam Neeson uses a broadsword (or is it a longsword?) against Tim Roth's fencing rapier. It's probably one of the most realistic sword duels ever put on film, but also cool to see how the two styles clash. Neeson at an obvious disadvantage, ultimately only brute force and luck allow him to win. I could see why it would not be practical to mix these styles based on the different weights of the swords alone (Neeson wears himself out faster than Roth), though I suppose lightsabers are mostly weightless which makes it more logical to blend these styles or see them used against one another

 

[Totenkindly]

It is somewhat rare though in fictional media to see completely different forms and styles used against one another. One good example I can think of is the duel in Rob Roy. Liam Neeson uses a broadsword (or is it a longsword?) against Tim Roth's fencing rapier. It's probably one of the most realistic sword duels ever put on film.

Yeah, that is one of my favorite fights ever on film, as opposed to all the fancy-smancy stuff that passes for swordplay with fake disarmings, etc. Pretty sure it was a broadsword. It is a lovely film, it's too bad Braveheart got all the attention at the time since it's more on point historically, I think, too...

Both weapons were shown used in appropriate styles, pro's and con's, and it ends beautifully. Here is a decent description of it:
Rob Roy: The Rut of the Sword Part 2 | It Rains... You Get Wet

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Yeah, that is one of my favorite fights ever on film, as opposed to all the fancy-smancy stuff that passes for swordplay with fake disarmings, etc. Pretty sure it was a broadsword. It is a lovely film, it's too bad Braveheart got all the attention at the time since it's more on point historically, I think, too...

Both weapons were shown used in appropriate styles, pro's and con's, and it ends beautifully. Here is a decent description of it:
Rob Roy: The Rut of the Sword Part 2 | It Rains... You Get Wet

Cunning and patience vs skill and malice

 

[Totenkindly]

I think this is the problem when the Sith are written as Stupid Evil alignment.

A lot of it is the inherent dumbness of Lucas' dichotomies, although people who came later have sometimes followed them needlessly (such as in making Sith look monstrous -- what, Lucas never heard about the dark sometimes coming cloaked as light?)

I think we've had the discussion before about it being more Law vs Chaos.

Anyway, I get bored by Stupid Evil. It's simply not effective... kind of like Stupid Good. People are more complex, and strength is more complex, and few people live in those extremes.

ROFL on the clone thing. Yeah, hinging ROS on sudden cloning tech for the emperor, whereas it was never really used previously aside from cloning dudes for the stormtrooper army. Talk about selective application.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think this is the problem when the Sith are written as Stupid Evil alignment.

The Rule of Two is definitely a little dumb, and yeah, I had a hard time grasping why Sith Lords would even take apprentices if they were just going to kill them.

 

[chickpea]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

He's the key to all of this.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

He's the key to all of this.

See, it's like poetry, they rhyme.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

A lot of it is the inherent dumbness of Lucas' dichotomies, although people who came later have sometimes followed them needlessly (such as in making Sith look monstrous -- what, Lucas never heard about the dark sometimes coming cloaked as light?)

That is how I used to imagine Palpatine prior to seeing his portrayal in the prequels. I imagined an almost angelic figure appearing in a time of deep crisis and promising all of the answers. Sort of worming his way into high society like Sauron did back when he disguised himself as an advisor/messiah type figure to men in middle earth. I had imagined he would deliver a tempting message, with even some jedi being fooled by his false idealism. That's where Anakin's turn would come in, he would be tempted along with several other young jedi to follow the teachings of Palpatine, and by the time he realized the mistake he'd made, he'd have done too many dark deeds to forgive himself. Anyway, Palpatine's small army of adepts would be doing his dark biddings, helping to hunt down jedi. By the time of Obi-Wan's and Anakin's first duel, Anakin is the only remaining adept, but he's also successfully helped to wipe out most of the jedi order, with the rest in hiding. So that leads to what he becomes by the time of the OT, a guy who still thinks on some level that he is doing right, but also feeling a lot of guilt and self loathing over some past deeds. The prequels handled that turn clunkily and made it appear like Anakin was fooled over one little thing. The fooling should have been a gradual process, unfortunately the movies just didn't handle it very gracefully, although TCW somewhat remedied it.

Interestingly, the original New Hope novelization almost portrayed the emperor as a powerless figurehead beholden to special interests in the account given in the prologue. So it's interesting how he evolved quite a bit even prior to his first appearance in TESB.

Anyway, the whole face change because of lightning rubbish was stupid. I always had assumed Palpatine had the power to project a kindly, benevolent figure (sort of like he does via hologram in Rebels), and that the evil face seen in Return of the Jedi was just him not bothering to hide his true face anymore. One aspect of the old EU I liked was the explanation that his decrepit appearance was simply a result of overexposure to the darkside.