Star Wars 9

[The Cat]

Snoke is a terrible name for an imposing villain (turns out Snoke was probably apt because he was a joke of a villain, just like Kylo). Snoke is a name that always reminds me of a weasel like alien with a cocaine addiction.

Vader-Snoke. Vader-Snoke. Honestly one sounds like it demands respect. The other?

“Luke? Luke! We’ve got Snokes in the barn again. They’ll eat all the grain. Better set some traps.”

All the names in Star Wars are pretty stupid when you think about it.

 

[Population: 1]

All the names in Star Wars are pretty stupid when you think about it.

True but Snoke?

Also, I’m no farmer so I’d store grain in my barn instead of a silo. City slicker.

 

[The Cat]

True but Snoke?

Also, I’m no farmer so I’d store grain in my barn instead of a silo. City slicker.

"Han" Solo

"Dash" Rendar

"Luke" Skywalker

"Chew" Bacca

And the first three letters of Palpatine spell Pal.

 

[Totenkindly]

Personally I think this trilogy should have been set to a smaller scale and not at least partially focused on a rehash of rebellion versus empire because been there done that.

Yeah, the First Order was way too much a rehash of the Empire. And then there was yet another large round destroyer globe that had to be blown up by pilots. So much of this deja vu could have been eliminated pretty effortlessly.

In a huge universe of many different planets supporting humanoid life of various sizes and shapes, I'm not sure how anyone gets traction. Like, the First Order could have subjugated them? This is the Star Wars version of Star Trek Gobbledygookspeak -- basically all the complexity of trade and diplomacy just gets represented by a localized bad guys group and good guys group, but they certainly can't be everywhere nor control everyone with their infrastructure destroyed and a "cosmic powered baddie" like the Emperor removed. It just wasn't that convincing. It would have made more sense with more localized problems/conflicts but not on the scope the movie tried to suggest.

It should have focused on the OT characters at least initially and then slowly (you have three movies to work with) transitioned to the next generation. It should have dealt with a final resolution to the whole dark side light side dynamic and how Jedi/Sith or whatever fit into the framework of a new galactic age.

Lucas had the same problem with how to grapple with a full UNIVERSE of planets -- so we only see a handful of Jedi and he acts like they're all dead but Obi-wan, Luke, and Yoda.

Donaldson's "Covenant" series had this thing where when you graduated from your training, you could become a Lord and join the established "wizards/druids" so to speak, fighting Lord Foul -- or you could rescind local duty and instead become one of the Unfettered Ones, living out your days to learn / delve into certain world/cosmic truths in solitude... an individual devotion of your own choice, rather than the ones the Lords chose collectively.

Long story short, there have gotta be a lot of Jedi and Sith out there doing their own thing, not playing a part in this Universal battle. We could have stories about them. I think Rian Johnson would have enjoyed that better than having to play second boxcar in this particular train.

I think the real tragedy of the sequel trilogy is that it had characters that could have been compelling if someone had a cohesive vision for the trilogy and focused on the damn characters. It would have also helped to have had a company other than Disney running it. Disney is ultimately too focused on pushing the marketing of action figures etc etc. You know what ultimately sold Star Wars action figures to kids in the 70’s/80’s? Compelling characters. Concentrate on story and characters first and everything else will follow. Too many suits were involved here and they needed a director and a writer to helm the entire trilogy. None of this passing it off to the next guy that apparently has a completely different take on the franchise and characters than you do.

That was stupid. I remember when the announcement came out, and you had Abrams -> Johnson -> Trevorrow as the lineup. Talk about jarring, these are guys who don't really make the same kinds of movies. That's more for amateur fan fic hour.

Snoke is a terrible name for an imposing villain (turns out Snoke was probably apt because he was a joke of a villain, just like Kylo). Snoke is a name that always reminds me of a weasel like alien with a cocaine addiction.

It's one of those names that you think was tossed in the script as a joke and "we'll revisit later" and then it gets stuck.

Kinda like Cameron keeping the name "unobtainium" for the precious resource on Pandora in "Avatar."

 

[The Cat]

Yeah, the First Order was way too much a rehash of the Empire. And then there was yet another large round destroyer globe that had to be blown up by pilots. So much of this deja vu could have been eliminated pretty effortlessly.

In a huge universe of many different planets supporting humanoid life of various sizes and shapes, I'm not sure how anyone gets traction. Like, the First Order could have subjugated them? This is the Star Wars version of Star Trek Gobbledygookspeak -- basically all the complexity of trade and diplomacy just gets represented by a localized bad guys group and good guys group, but they certainly can't be everywhere nor control everyone with their infrastructure destroyed and a "cosmic powered baddie" like the Emperor removed. It just wasn't that convincing. It would have made more sense with more localized problems/conflicts but not on the scope the movie tried to suggest.



Lucas had the same problem with how to grapple with a full UNIVERSE of planets -- so we only see a handful of Jedi and he acts like they're all dead but Obi-wan, Luke, and Yoda.

Donaldson's "Covenant" series had this thing where when you graduated from your training, you could become a Lord and join the established "wizards/druids" so to speak, fighting Lord Foul -- or you could rescind local duty and instead become one of the Unfettered Ones, living out your days to learn / delve into certain world/cosmic truths in solitude... an individual devotion of your own choice, rather than the ones the Lords chose collectively.

Long story short, there have gotta be a lot of Jedi and Sith out there doing their own thing, not playing a part in this Universal battle. We could have stories about them. I think Rian Johnson would have enjoyed that better than having to play second boxcar in this particular train.



That was stupid. I remember when the announcement came out, and you had Abrams -> Johnson -> Trevorrow as the lineup. Talk about jarring, these are guys who don't really make the same kinds of movies. That's more for amateur fan fic hour.



It's one of those names that you think was tossed in the script as a joke and "we'll revisit later" and then it gets stuck.

Kinda like Cameron keeping the name "unobtainium" for the precious resource on Pandora in "Avatar."

I've aslways been bugged by the oversimplifcation of Jedi and Sith.

There's so much potential for subtelty and complexity with this two different ideologies of Force Philosopher warriors. And they just get over simplified and given the stupidest black and white thinking. It's dissapointing. I liked the old comics versions when they were real people. Noble Sith and Power hungry Jedi made them all like antiheroes.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah. And I liked in the Old Republic where after the main plot continued and a version of an Emperor figure showed up (this is many centuries before the current time), the Sith and Jedi had to unite (some didn't) to quell that common threat, then two of them continued to work together to train your character -- they had essentially grown to respect each other through their commonality (devotion, honesty, etc) rather than just play stereotypes. Both of course also took some flak from others of their order. So you were forced to become some kind of amalgam of Sith/Jedi in terms of putting together your own ethical code and decide your specific path to walk. [The Sith lord is actually a force ghost at this point, because he dies early in the story, standing up against this powerful evil and refusing to bow to him like all of his cowering friends -- he had too much honor for that.]

 

[Population: 1]

Yeah, the First Order was way too much a rehash of the Empire. And then there was yet another large round destroyer globe that had to be blown up by pilots. So much of this deja vu could have been eliminated pretty effortlessly.

In a huge universe of many different planets supporting humanoid life of various sizes and shapes, I'm not sure how anyone gets traction. Like, the First Order could have subjugated them? This is the Star Wars version of Star Trek Gobbledygookspeak -- basically all the complexity of trade and diplomacy just gets represented by a localized bad guys group and good guys group, but they certainly can't be everywhere nor control everyone with their infrastructure destroyed and a "cosmic powered baddie" like the Emperor removed. It just wasn't that convincing. It would have made more sense with more localized problems/conflicts but not on the scope the movie tried to suggest.



Lucas had the same problem with how to grapple with a full UNIVERSE of planets -- so we only see a handful of Jedi and he acts like they're all dead but Obi-wan, Luke, and Yoda.

Donaldson's "Covenant" series had this thing where when you graduated from your training, you could become a Lord and join the established "wizards/druids" so to speak, fighting Lord Foul -- or you could rescind local duty and instead become one of the Unfettered Ones, living out your days to learn / delve into certain world/cosmic truths in solitude... an individual devotion of your own choice, rather than the ones the Lords chose collectively.

Long story short, there have gotta be a lot of Jedi and Sith out there doing their own thing, not playing a part in this Universal battle. We could have stories about them. I think Rian Johnson would have enjoyed that better than having to play second boxcar in this particular train.



That was stupid. I remember when the announcement came out, and you had Abrams -> Johnson -> Trevorrow as the lineup. Talk about jarring, these are guys who don't really make the same kinds of movies. That's more for amateur fan fic hour.



It's one of those names that you think was tossed in the script as a joke and "we'll revisit later" and then it gets stuck.

Kinda like Cameron keeping the name "unobtainium" for the precious resource on Pandora in "Avatar."

The logistics of galactic level warfare are frankly beyond us as a single planet civilization so I can understand veering away from trying to delve into too deeply.

A major problem I have is Abrams. He just can’t concern himself with petty details like how did the republic fall apart in 30 so years. He’s too obsessed with finding the next wow moment. He’s all dazzle and no substance. He’s also a borrower and not an innovator.

There are probably Jedi and Sith out there doing their own thing oblivious to the events of the last 30 years. There would have been stronghold systems held by and fiercely defended by the empire after the emperor kinda sorta apparently didn’t die (I know in the EU he had clones). They could still be operating business as usual. Sci-fi or sci-fi fantasy has more opportunities for stand alone stories than any other genre. They could continue to produce Star Wars stories indefinitely if the interest was there.

Films by committee are always disastrous. I don’t know wtf they were thinking.

Snoke is definitely a placeholder name. Or should have been anyway.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

One thing I liked about Rogue One was that it suggested other force-based religions exist alongside the Sith and Jedi. This is something I'd like to have seen explored more in the new trilogy. I think the grey jedi are a more perfect realization and synthesis of the philosophies of the jedi and the sith. I had hoped Luke would've formed his new order more along those lines. It might explain in part what led him to abandon everyone after nearly killing Kylo.

 

[Totenkindly]

we all hoped for that, kid.

but nada. All we got was soap.



--------------

The studio is always worried about its financial investment. The director is usually worried about his work.

I don't want to make it so purely black and white, because sometimes the pressure from an outside force can hone an artist's work to make a better/film story -- you see it when people don't have everything they want for their film, and in the process of making something work, they end up doing something really interesting rather than not being willing to "kill their darlings."

But yeah, lately, we see the result of massive studio interference (Fantastic Four, Suicide Squad, etc.). They shoot themselves in both feet trying to worry too much about demographics and sales.

 

[The Cat]

I love how this thread so far covers the spectrum of Star Wars Fans in various stages of jadedness.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

"Han" Solo

"Dash" Rendar

"Luke" Skywalker

"Chew" Bacca

And the first three letters of Palpatine spell Pal.

that wasn't Han's real name. He got that nickname from his boarding school days. I think they deleted that part from Solo. Before he was a dashing ladies' man, he was a solo artist, if you catch my drift.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

we all hoped for that, kid.

but nada. All we got was soap.



--------------

The studio is always worried about its financial investment. The director is usually worried about his work.

I don't want to make it so purely black and white, because sometimes the pressure from an outside force can hone an artist's work to make a better/film story -- you see it when people don't have everything they want for their film, and in the process of making something work, they end up doing something really interesting rather than not being willing to "kill their darlings."

But yeah, lately, we see the result of massive studio interference (Fantastic Four, Suicide Squad, etc.). They shoot themselves in both feet trying to worry too much about demographics and sales.

In the case of A New Hope, I think the tension between Lucas and the powers-that-be resulted in a better film than we'd have gotten had he had total control.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Because there was an actual story, even if much of it was recycled?

and no space politics amirite! take that vague senate planet. ... kaboom! Not like anyone else in the movie cares much about the blowup of vague senate planet, either. buh-bye trade disputes!

Versus just 4-5 "moments" but all the connecting thread was shit inside the film + to any other film in the series? Which is what a story is -- the overarching connection between plot points?

It had a heart, soul, and wit that TFA lacked for the most part. One movie continues to excite me on multiple rewatches, and the other one doesn't. One movie felt like seeing the movies re-released in theaters in 97 when I was in elementary school, while the other one merely aped a bunch of superficial elements even when it didn't make sense. (Like, why the hell is there another rebellion when there's a New Republic around.. it would be nice to have something explaining that in the movie but lol thank gawd no lameo talk about senate procedure) That movie acted like Return of the Jedi didn't even happen and didn't even bother to explain why. If there's a movie disconnected from the rest of the series, I'd say it's that one.

TFA only worked for me in that I didn't have high expectations. It didn't exceed them by that much, and it also let me down somewhat due to dumping any sense of context or worldbuilding in favor of Generation X nostalgia. I liked the characters in the movie and thought the performances were good, as well as the final lightsaber battle, but the story is really boring because I've seen it done much better before in a more immersive way. People get mad at TLJ for not explaining Snoke, but explaining what the hell happened after ROTJ was really the job of the past movie, and it wasn't interested in at all; they'd rather show us a soopah Death Star that doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the story except for freeing us from the unbearable possibility that we might hear about a trade dispute again or something.

TLJ exceeded my expectations by a great deal; it handled the Force better than any movie has done since (or before) ESB, and provided a compelling arc for Luke that satisfied me on levels I didn't expect to be satisfied with.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Maybe TLJ is the Halloween III or On Her Majesty's Secret Service of the franchise, meaning in 20 years everyone will regard it as an underrated classic, if not the very best entry in the series. Then Julius can say told ya so, if this forum still exists.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

and no space politics amirite! take that vague senate planet. ... kaboom! Not like anyone else in the movie cares much about the blowup of vague senate planet, either. buh-bye trade disputes!



It had a heart, soul, and wit that TFA lacked for the most part. One movie continues to excite me on multiple rewatches, and the other one doesn't. One movie felt like seeing the movies re-released in theaters in 97 when I was in elementary school, while the other one merely aped a bunch of superficial elements even when it didn't make sense. (like, why the hell is there another rebellion when there's a New Republic around.. it would be nice to have something explaining that in the movie but lol thank gawd no lameo trade disputes)

That bothered me exceedingly, how they call their military organization "The Resistance", despite it being apparent their backers were running the republic. It also bothered me that the overall aesthetic of starship and uniform designs hadn't changed much in the nearly 40 years since the OT. People can say what they want about the Prequels, but at least the designs from those to OT era feel like a natural progression and evolution, whereas it's obvious JJ wanted to keep things in the new trilogy looking as much like the classic designs as possible, just with slight facelifts. Key examples, the Tie Fighters, X Wings, beefed up Walkers, and Star Destroyers. I was excited to see some new designs but that would still have a star warsy feel, so I was disappointed when I got my first look at the ships and uniforms and they mostly looked exactly like the stuff from the OT.

 

[The Cat]

Red stripes. Red stripes everywhare.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Maybe TLJ is the Halloween III or On Her Majesty's Secret Service of the franchise, meaning in 20 years everyone will regard it as an underrated classic, if not the very best entry in the series. Then Julius can say told ya so, if this forum still exists.

I wouldn't say it's the best, but I'd say it's on par with the best. I'd say the same about Rogue One. The other two Disney-era films don't reach that level.

Also, X-wings are overrated. A-wings are way better, and I love that TLJ featured them.

 

[rav3n]

Since you're going to see it, let us know your thoughts afterwards. Please spoiler any details if it's worth seeing.

 

[The Cat]

I like B wings.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I like Y Wings. They're like space cadillacs