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ambition/success in society vs. following your passions

ygolo

My termites win
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I wanted to bump this thread to ask some further questions about "failure."

I was just thinking last night, that some of the "smartest" most successful people I know were the ones dropped out of high-school or college at some point. (Not that I am encouraging people to do that)

I know people say that the reason people who "succeed" the most are also the ones who "fail" the most is because they try a lot of things.

But I think it goes deeper than that. I've been trying a lot of things for quite some time, but somehow, I haven't found my "passion," or "calling" or whatever. I have some ideas, but they're just that--ideas.

Imagine if Newton were a marginally "successful" farmer, would he have written The Principia?

Imagine if Darwin were good at anything at all that his father wanted, would he have documented his theory in such detail?

What if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs hadn't dropped out of college? What if the Google guys were still in their Ph.D. program instead of starting Google?

Were these people struck by their "calling" or in the grips of their "passion" before dropping whatever their socially expected "success" was to pursue it?

Or was it simply an "idea," an inkling, that this may be what they would love to do?
 

ptgatsby

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I was just thinking last night, that some of the "smartest" most successful people I know were the ones dropped out of high-school or college at some point. (Not that I am encouraging people to do that)

For each success we hear, we probably can find 99 who did that and never got anywhere. And not all for a lack of talent either!

I know people say that the reason people who "succeed" the most are also the ones who "fail" the most is because they try a lot of things.

I think it depends on the metric of success, but I'm not sure that "try lots = success". I think the opposite is true, however, "don't try lots <> success". So, for every person who tries lots of things, some are going to succeed, and we hear about them.

But I think it goes deeper than that. I've been trying a lot of things for quite some time, but somehow, I haven't found my "passion," or "calling" or whatever. I have some ideas, but they're just that--ideas.

They aren't just ideas. Those are the things you need to try! If you don't like them, then you move to the next. That's exactly what it is all about. The pursuit of those kinds of concepts need to be your passion. Success if what happens when all the factors line up, and your best chance is to do.

But beware, are those ideas of things you enjoy? Or is it ideas for success? If you only do for success, then you are trying to "game the system", and end up doing exactly what you don't enjoy just to be successful. You need to start with the passions, then find success in them. Or rather, your best odds are to find something you can do, and will do, over an over.

What if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs hadn't dropped out of college? What if the Google guys were still in their Ph.D. program instead of starting Google?

Then something/someone else would of replaced them. Someone would of produced the goods. Would it be the same as now? Certainly not but we are actors in the big picture. They just had an idea and tried it, and it worked. The point is that each person pursuing what they do will find their niche. Some will be successful, and we'll note them, but everyone is happier when they pursue what they want.

Of course, I say this, but I realise that money for food is important too!

Were these people struck by their "calling" or in the grips of their "passion" before dropping whatever their socially expected "success" was to pursue it?

That's the question... how do we find it? What is it? I wish I could answer that question, for myself or others.

What I do know is that emotional stability really hides it. My projects die when I get down, and feel trapped. I think we share that issue.
 

ygolo

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For each success we hear, we probably can find 99 who did that and never got anywhere. And not all for a lack of talent either!

It's not an all-or-nothing thing. Just because we don't hear about them doesn't mean they weren't successful. Many are great "lifestyle entrepreneurs."

Granted, my sample is skewed, but every single person who decided to strike out on their own. that I know IRL, is making enough money to support themselves and do what they want.

I think it depends on the metric of success, but I'm not sure that "try lots = success". I think the opposite is true, however, "don't try lots <> success". So, for every person who tries lots of things, some are going to succeed, and we hear about them.

Well, I guess the definition of "success" is central here. Ultimately, for me, it is about freedom. If you are free to do what you want within the confines of a job or business, then I would call it success. If you have enough money that you don't have to work to support doing what you want to do, then I would call it success also.

They aren't just ideas. Those are the things you need to try! If you don't like them, then you move to the next. That's exactly what it is all about. The pursuit of those kinds of concepts need to be your passion. Success if what happens when all the factors line up, and your best chance is to do.

But beware, are those ideas of things you enjoy? Or is it ideas for success? If you only do for success, then you are trying to "game the system", and end up doing exactly what you don't enjoy just to be successful. You need to start with the passions, then find success in them. Or rather, your best odds are to find something you can do, and will do, over an over.

I've tried ideas of both kinds. I am "in the ballpark" when it comes to being an engineer. I've tried software, digital hardware, and am trying out more analog circuits now. They are all interesting, and what I do in the future will be supported by what I've done. But what I am missing here is "impact." I want to do something that moves humanity forward in some great leap. Maybe I will just be some small part, but I want to closer to the work that makes the impact. Not just filling in the details of what other people have done.

I guess, I would like to move more into Research & Development rather than Development & Design--though Design is fun.

In a way, if there was a position that allowed Research & Development & Design & Production, that would be the best thing for me. I want really broad creative control over the technology.

Then something/someone else would of replaced them. Someone would of produced the goods. Would it be the same as now? Certainly not but we are actors in the big picture. They just had an idea and tried it, and it worked. The point is that each person pursuing what they do will find their niche. Some will be successful, and we'll note them, but everyone is happier when they pursue what they want.

The trick is knowing what we want.

On the other point (a bit of a tangent)...
I guess it depends on perspective. I'm not sure someone would have replaced the figures I mentioned. This is most definitely a hypothetical question, since the people who did these things were the people who did these things.

I certainly don't want to give them more credit than they are due, since they were all making extensive use of the work of others in their circles, relied on connections they had, the unique opportunities afforded to them, and plenty of other people in the area giving them support.

With out Darwin's wealth there would have been no Darwin as we know him. Without Lorentz, there would have been no Einstein as we know him, without the policy of audit at his college, Steve Jobs would have had a different future, ...

However, I think economists and others studying aggregate human behavior are realizing that it is the "Black Swans" that really matter. It is the "outliers" and weird phenomenon that move markets and shape the future. That's what makes this sort of thing hard to predict.

The formulas work only until someone "changes the game." Olympic predictions were vastly thrown off by China's effort to explicitly win medals, and the collapse of the Russian Olympic machine.

In the end, we are still only modeling "chaotic" behavior "as if" it was "random." Chaos and randomness are different things, though they share some similarities on the surface.

That's the question... how do we find it? What is it? I wish I could answer that question, for myself or others.

What I do know is that emotional stability really hides it. My projects die when I get down, and feel trapped. I think we share that issue.

I wonder if a younger me could have answered this more succinctly.

When I took my first job, it actually "felt wrong," in that I knew that it was not what I wanted to be doing. But, I figured it was a "good job," making use of the types of things I liked to study. I also thought it would give me "practical experience" in the "real world."

A decade later, I have done a little job-hopping, finished some degrees, but still essentially in the same environment. The environment is comfortable, fairly safe (circuit designers are not easy to find), but soul numbing.
 

FDG

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Granted, my sample is skewed, but every single person who decided to strike out on their own. that I know IRL, is making enough money to support themselves and do what they want.

Very often, this particular tendency tends to have a self-selection bias, in the sense that if somebody strongly feels like he can and want to strike out on his own and he is smart enough (and I suppose that was what you meant by saying that your distribution is skewed), then he is more likely to do it because it is what he wants.

I don't know if my analogy is correct, but I see a similar mechanism at work when I am working from home choosing myself which projects to do vs working in an office needing to wait for people to tell me what to do: in the former case I can work 10 hours straight and not even feel like it is a "bad" (in standard economic theory, work is defined as a "bad" and leisure as a "good"); at the office, 1 hour of working is enough to demotivate me.
 

nightning

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Going to throw in a second point that it's easier to remember the sensational compared to the ordinary. People who strike out and succeed has the wow factor that make it easier for us to recall. I'm fairly certain an equally large if not larger portion of people who stick with a conventional occupation does just as well.
 

Tayshaun

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What gives meaning to your life?

What type of accomplishment makes you proud?

What do you need in order to feel balanced?

The answer to your question will follow.
 

yenom

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I've tried ideas of both kinds. I am "in the ballpark" when it comes to being an engineer. I've tried software, digital hardware, and am trying out more analog circuits now. They are all interesting, and what I do in the future will be supported by what I've done. But what I am missing here is "impact." I want to do something that moves humanity forward in some great leap. Maybe I will just be some small part, but I want to closer to the work that makes the impact. Not just filling in the details of what other people have done.

What trechnology trends do you see in the coming furture?
 

cascadeco

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do you think it is better to follow ambitions which lead to success (by society's definition) and to do what "makes sense", or to follow your passions regardless of the disadvantages your lifestyle may suffer?

How do you define 'better'? ;) In some ways it's 'better' to lead a successful life by society's definition and maintain a steady job with stable income. Many of your tangible needs are met in that way - food, shelter, paying bills, etc - nothing to worry about, per se. Survival is ensured, and you have your comforts.

But that kinda leaves out the intangibles - are you intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually satisfied? (I use the word 'spiritual' loosely, as I don't think it has to imply a belief in a God.) Without those other levels of satisfaction being met, it could be a pretty lackluster life. Just going through the motions, but for what end?

Now I think there's a certain amount of internal adjustment to your expectations/needs/perceptions that can be done to make the former scenario more palatable, and to be able to achieve a level of contentment and happiness with it. Much of it can be your attitude about it, and choosing how to look at things.

For me, it's something that doesn't last indefinitely though. Ultimately I become restless and need something new, and I still would like to find a way to follow my passions. I still need to do more thinking on all of that though.

I'd like to have success in something I'm passionate about. I have a friend who is very much following that path, and is becoming successful in something she loves, and I envy that. It's like an extension of herself, and her very identity. Basically she's being paid for, and is getting professional recognition for, what she cares about and who she is. I envy that she's defined that thing she's passionate enough about to just go for. Because I've never had any one thing that's 'spoken' to me in that way. I have many things that I see as possibilities, but can't pinpoint anything yet (OR have fear at the lifestyle I would have, or sacrifices I'd have to make, if I chose to follow my passions). I also recognize that nothing's ever gonna be perfect, and there will always be not-so-great aspects of everything, so that recognition might also stop me from doing anything before I even start. :doh:

To be continued. ;)
 

ygolo

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What gives meaning to your life?

What type of accomplishment makes you proud?

What do you need in order to feel balanced?

The answer to your question will follow.

A career alone can't do all this. I've somewhat decided that I have always been motivated by technology and science that moved society forward in great leaps. That's why I initially went into Computer/Electrical Engineering.

But, I am not really in Research, and I've discovered that's where I want to be. I have also discovered that many people in research in EE are also disgruntled because of the pipeline style in research and development where the vast majority of research ends up in the "Valley of Death" and not utilized in development.

That leaves two options for me:
1) Extremely fundamental research in feild like physics, where real discoveries are hard, but fundamental enough that new phenomenon are available to human-kind.
2) EE research, development, design, production all together in my own enterprise

What trechnology trends do you see in the coming furture?

I'm not sure. There are a lot of trends. Nanotech is growing fast, but mainly in material-science. Biotech is also growing, the main comercial applications in "brewing" energy sources. Robotics, AI and Cognitive Science seem destined to converge somehow with the ability to "read minds" and do their bidding.
 

yenom

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Well, generally, innovators can forsee a trend in the furture and wish to speed up the process. Therefore they develop an innovation to shorten the gap between now and the future. Energy and material science is going to be a major thing between now and the future. Light weight materials, energy storage, enerfgy transfer etc....but these things require tremendous amount of capital and knowledge.

the economy itself is far freom efficient. If you can see ways to increase economic ouput or develop new resources that can help mankind go further, the potential will be limitless.
 

Moiety

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Maybe it's because I'm a F but to me the socially accepted element of "success" that interests me is simply the family aspect. If I can have a family and follow my passions I'm in heaven.

Mucho money or mucho status don't appeal to me really. I really mean that. I just want to be in a position where every day is a happy day. Where I enjoy going to work everyday (that is very important to me, to have a job I LIKE even if it's not that well payed) and where I can be happy when I come home (family drama/problems) not withstanding) knowing I've left my mark on this world (offspring) and have someone who I can love and that loves me back.
 

ygolo

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Well, generally, innovators can forsee a trend in the furture and wish to speed up the process. Therefore they develop an innovation to shorten the gap between now and the future. Energy and material science is going to be a major thing between now and the future. Light weight materials, energy storage, enerfgy transfer etc....but these things require tremendous amount of capital and knowledge.

the economy itself is far freom efficient. If you can see ways to increase economic ouput or develop new resources that can help mankind go further, the potential will be limitless.

I "see" so much "unactualized potential" it hurts.
 

kiddykat

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Awesome question!

I think following one's heart is important- b/c then, we're truly living out what we're meant to do in life. That's what nurtures us.

Prior to finishing up with a B.A., I landed my dream job at a local J.C. They paid me well enough that I got myself through college on my own and had spare change, afterwards.

In fact, the job requirement they asked for usually is for someone with a B.A.

I woke up every morning, dreading work, despite the people and environment. I loved the people. I just can't handle 'office' jobs. Offices give me heebeejeebees in general. I get goosebumps when it comes to things that get so routine.

On top of that, I quit early (temporarily, remorsefully- I could've earned more money), but it just wasn't right for me.

Afterwards, waking up in the morning was like the Folger's commercials, where the lady wakes up with a bright smile!

Yes- in the end, I learned that following one's heart/passions is important. It opens doors to more opportunities we ideally would love to be surrounded by.

Passion + Dedication shows up in overall job performance/productivity = Rational sense to listen to our hearts.

(Bonus rewards- Overall, quality of life).
 

yenom

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unactualized potential as in scientific potential?

Today, we are governed by the coporate world. everyone is fdorced to work for a company or else sleep in the streets. The freedom to pursue what we want to do is severely limited because our very survival depends on the money of other people. Given this limitation, most innovations today are driven by shoirt term profit rather than long term benefit for mankind.

I too wish that our world would one day move towards a scientiefic economy, but this seems so far off.
 

ygolo

My termites win
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unactualized potential as in scientific potential?

Today, we are governed by the coporate world. everyone is fdorced to work for a company or else sleep in the streets. The freedom to pursue what we want to do is severely limited because our very survival depends on the money of other people. Given this limitation, most innovations today are driven by shoirt term profit rather than long term benefit for mankind.

I too wish that our world would one day move towards a scientiefic economy, but this seems so far off.

I mean potential in many different areas. But mainly in the workplace--Human potential wasted on doing tasks that machines could and should do better.

Broken software, lack of initiative in getting it fixed. Fatalism regarding methodology improvements. Underestimation of what computers can do better than humans...and yes a lot of potential in science as well.
 

Ardea

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I see a retarded beauty in living out your passions, and having to pay for it... or rather not being paid for it.

It's fitting. I think I want to live like a Dandy... shabby chic... yet completely and utterly congruent to my passions.

La boheme...
 

Amargith

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I try to combine the two. I studied one thing coz my real passion wasn't available to me at the time, and ended up working under my 'level' coz it was a job that included what I'm passionate about. Now, I'm looking to work somewhere just to have a job for a while, while I study what I want to study and eventually, I hope to work in that field :)
 
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