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  1. #21
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Not saying that education contributes nothing, btw, if its well done it contributes alot, I agree that teaching critical thinking skills is as important as offereing training for a profession, but critical thinking can be learned outside of public education, whereas with training its either college or an apprenticeship, I'm a big fan of critical thinking I do think it can be taught in school but since it can be learned outside of it I understand why many universities are placing an emphasis on training above socratic method, so to speak.
    Critical thinking is useless without breadth and depth of knowledge.

    ...And having this knowledge is useless without critical thinking. But without the raw materials to work with, all you can do is pretend that you are smarter, by virtue of having "critical thinking", than anybody. ...And then you sound like... what's that other guy with that annoying dog icon?

    ...It does look like academia needs better PR, but ... Meh. Every layman seems to think they know about academia and their "ivory towers". And nobody considers the fact that we don't actually NEED to have every aspect of society governed by some outdated economic theory from the 1700s.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Smilephantomhive's Avatar
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    I mean most information is available. Many for free, but you can try and get past paywalls. College is a more structured way if getting that info.


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  3. #23
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilephantomhive View Post
    I mean most information is available. Many for free, but you can try and get past paywalls. College is a more structured way if getting that info.
    You really believe that gathering information via Google is equivalent to going to college? This is statement is precisely why I feel teaching critical thinking skills is crucial, because working in a structured environemt with other people who often have more experience helps you challenge your blind spots. Also, since we live in an information age, not being able to distinguish between quality information and poor information, even misinformation, is key.

    I think there should be different options for people to pursue. Apprenticeships should focus solely on professional training. Associate and bachelor's degrees should focus more on teaching professional skills, with critical thinking being a secondary priority. A masters degree should focus on developping critical thinking, with professional skills a secondary priority, and PhD level should be all about research and critical thinking, the degree for "philosopher kings", if you will.

    Of course, that being said, this is an ideal and its never going to be perfectly regular like that, depending on the subject matter of a degree the teaching is going to be different and so then is the emphasis on what it should highlight, either professional skills or critical thinking.

    So I kinda disagree with myself above. I don't think teaching critical thinking skills is a waste of public money. I had to time to think about this in the meantime, critical thinking is indespensible.

  4. #24
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    Critical thinking is useless without breadth and depth of knowledge.

    ...And having this knowledge is useless without critical thinking. But without the raw materials to work with, all you can do is pretend that you are smarter, by virtue of having "critical thinking", than anybody. ...And then you sound like... what's that other guy with that annoying dog icon?

    ...It does look like academia needs better PR, but ... Meh. Every layman seems to think they know about academia and their "ivory towers". And nobody considers the fact that we don't actually NEED to have every aspect of society governed by some outdated economic theory from the 1700s.
    You raise an important point with your last sentence.

    Every choice in this world is a political choice, and thus a subjective one. This includes the idea that the economy should be given priority. Not saying this is wrong, per se, the idea that every problem has socio-economic causes is at the heart of our society, not saying this is right/wrong, it is how it is, but that doesn't mean we can't question that. Not every society in human history has been founded on the idea that problems have socio-economic causes. Explaining everything through economic causes, which is true of both marxism and classical liberalism, and thus trying to solve all of humanity's problems through economic solutions is nonetheless a political choice, and thus it is subjective.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Smilephantomhive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    You really believe that gathering information via Google is equivalent to going to college? This is statement is precisely why I feel teaching critical thinking skills is crucial, because working in a structured environemt with other people who often have more experience helps you challenge your blind spots. Also, since we live in an information age, not being able to distinguish between quality information and poor information, even misinformation, is key.

    I think there should be different options for people to pursue. Apprenticeships should focus solely on professional training. Associate and bachelor's degrees should focus more on teaching professional skills, with critical thinking being a secondary priority. A masters degree should focus on developping critical thinking, with professional skills a secondary priority, and PhD level should be all about research and critical thinking, the degree for "philosopher kings", if you will.

    Of course, that being said, this is an ideal and its never going to be perfectly regular like that, depending on the subject matter of a degree the teaching is going to be different and so then is the emphasis on what it should highlight, either professional skills or critical thinking.

    So I kinda disagree with myself above. I don't think teaching critical thinking skills is a waste of public money. I had to time to think about this in the meantime, critical thinking is indespensible.
    College can help with critical thinking, but you can learn out of college as well.


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  6. #26
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilephantomhive View Post
    College can help with critical thinking, but you can learn out of college as well.
    I know.

    I am just saying that learning on your own doesn't allow you to have your blind spots challenged, of course you can have your blindspots challenged outside of college.
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  7. #27
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    You raise an important point with your last sentence.

    Every choice in this world is a political choice, and thus a subjective one. This includes the idea that the economy should be given priority. Not saying this is wrong, per se, the idea that every problem has socio-economic causes is at the heart of our society, not saying this is right/wrong, it is how it is, but that doesn't mean we can't question that. Not every society in human history has been founded on the idea that problems have socio-economic causes. Explaining everything through economic causes, which is true of both marxism and classical liberalism, and thus trying to solve all of humanity's problems through economic solutions is nonetheless a political choice, and thus it is subjective.
    All this talk about choice....................

    What forms the foundation for making an informed choice?

    Taking Adam Smith for instance: the book was written during a period of time that was still in the stages of industrialization. --You sound exactly like that guy with the dog icon, just more "free-will"-- Anyway, that was a completely different stage of financial system than the one than we have today. And a close reading of Adam Smith shows that he recognized the need for government roles; what he was arguing for was also very different from how people today interpret him.
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  8. #28
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    All this talk about choice....................

    What forms the foundation for making an informed choice?

    Taking Adam Smith for instance: the book was written during a period of time that was still in the stages of industrialization. --You sound exactly like that guy with the dog icon, just more "free-will"-- Anyway, that was a completely different stage of financial system than the one than we have today. And a close reading of Adam Smith shows that he recognized the need for government roles; what he was arguing for was also very different from how people today interpret him.
    Not sure what is being debated here, an idea or dog icons? You're comparing me to another member, which by the way you write that it doesn't sound you like this member very much, so touché.

    Anyways, I don't think you've understood what I wrote. Hence the fact you aeren't addressing what I wrote, why are you telling me this stuff about Adam Smith? We're not in disagreement about that. Not sure what we're in disagreement about or even if we are as I don't get what you're debating...

  9. #29
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    Teaching is a real job.

    Also. ... I'm sure you've written many thesis at PhD levels. So many. In your free time. So accredited, very much wow.
    No I've stopped at a masters degree thesis on the economical prospects of space tourism and private space industries over the next 30 years From memory it clocked at about 100 pages. My parents pushed for a PHD and I told them not to be ridiculous and that I'd rather work for living. Before that I had annual / bi-annual missions like business audits of existing businesses, helping entrepreneurs start their business etc. And since I've managed tens of people, hired just as many, and had two separate businesses by age 27. What's your point exactly ?

    saying that only people with PHDs can judge the validity of pursuing a PHD is like saying that only rapists can judge other rapists, not an argument.
    My sister has a PHD - specializing in thermodynamics (applied math, engineering), she's now a rocket scientist, in her field it makes sense to do it as they're not going to trust someone who hasn't spent years studyting every aspect of rocket science / engineering with the launch of a multi million dollar rocket. In history it doesn't - it's a hobby.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I think if we're going to have college professors acting like an elite intellectual family, that contributes nothing except an aura of intellectualism, they shouldn't do it on public money. I believe that was his point. I do think alot of academic culture is about showing how smart you are, sure there is nothing wrong with being smart, nor with showing it off but mental gymnastics should be financed by private money, what does it contribute to the taxpayer to see their money invested in some professor publishing his research on X topic which will have no connection to his life. I'm pretty into intellectual stuff myself and I respect people who are well read and can debate with me, but those are my personal interests. Not saying that education contributes nothing, btw, if its well done it contributes alot, I agree that teaching critical thinking skills is as important as offereing training for a profession, but critical thinking can be learned outside of public education, whereas with training its either college or an apprenticeship, I'm a big fan of critical thinking I do think it can be taught in school but since it can be learned outside of it I understand why many universities are placing an emphasis on training above socratic method, so to speak.
    Ah that makes sense. I may have taken it too literally.
    I can see where you are coming from. Really, critical thinking should be taught before college. Still, I think that it could be very difficult for someone to learn it outside of an educational setting. At least in the US, I do not believe the current culture encourages it. Of course, this is generalized, but that's the overall feel I get.

    Still, having professors not receive public money would sort of be a strange balance since many universities receive funds from their respective states. So it would be a tricky situation for those schools.

    Still, I think there are worse things for the government to tax for. Well, I mostly think it is a huge problem that the government uses funds allotted for one purpose for other purposes. For example, the government is basically going to eventually drain the social security system within the next few years for other purposes. So they're basically stealing money that people have paid in to a system that will supposedly help them as retirees. However, the younger generations paying that tax won't have social security themselves.

    I'm an advocate for cutting spending across the board, though without tax cuts (if we are going to pay the national debt, they may need to be higher). The use of public money is just so fiscally poor. Honestly, the national debt is ridiculous. Still, no one would actually want to go along with where I think the cuts should be. Well, at least not in the government.

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