College is useless?

[1487610420]

I admit it's a conjecture of my own: it simply appears to me that gone are the days when you can start out sweeping floors and retire as president of a company. I suppose I've hard enough anecdotes about lack of promotions and mobility that it seemed like workers tend to be stuck where they are.

Where's the logic I'm missing?

bootstrap your own business and you get to do it all

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Do you have any good links? I'm interested in hearing about this.

I actually have none of his research or links. We happened to be at the same table at some sort of luncheon, and, as is my fashion when I encounter people who are knowledgeable, I listened a lot and asked a few guiding questions. We ended up talking for an hour or two after the luncheon and I think we did lunch once or twice after that.

I can't even remember his name. But he referenced all types of neurological and psychological studies, as well as education studies. He was definitely an expert in the field.

Anyway, I think his conclusion about the hungover frat boy was based upon his own experience and expertise and I don't know if he ever published it, given that he might not have wanted to hurt his own job.....

Universities are highly invested in online education right now (easy way to expand enrollment and increase revenue at little cost), so they really don't want to see lower learning benefits. And governments want education on the cheap.

For profit online schools are horrible. I had a lawyer friend who taught part time an online course for a for profit university (that mostly got military vets to use their GI benefits that could have been used at really good schools). He hated it. The school pressured him to give As for no work or effort. They really are mostly diploma mills.

 

[/DG/]

For me, I think finally being on my own, getting to truly make my own decisions, & take care of myself have been more valuable to me about college than the actual classes I've taken. The life experience itself is what I think I really need about it. Sorry, I don't think I'd be much help with academic advice.

Except you don't need to go to college for that... I went to college while still living at home.

Anyway, this isn't a recommendation against higher education on the basis of that. Just that it's a poor reason to choose to go if that's the only one.

 

[Blackout]

You don't sound stupid at all

Anyway, "critical thinking " or not, you can't really make a person that much more intelligent then they are, and the first step to unlocking whatever said intelligence or skills you may have is the will and desire to do so.

You can easily be "over qualified" for positions as well and with degrees I would wager it's almost more about playing your cards right and asking your self what you can really gain advantage from your situation the most based on what you are dealing or working with at the current moment and I don't really think that getting a degree outright or for the sake of it's always the best option to choose for a person. It also depends I think on your ability to network and what your chosen or desired field is or even where you live at the moment.

I live in a place where it's considered mandatory bare minimum to have a college degree and meet some odd semblance of "professionalism" (whatever that means) and where there's considered to be no excuse not to be successful even if yet there is not a vast outpouring of jobs, but oh the charade it continues for all time.

But I guess what I was trying to get at or what I think is that college itself doesn't really matter anymore it's just been made into a necessary hoop one must pass to be accepted into society now it would seem and I suppose in that sense it's good to ask yourself what or how it's going to benefit you. But it's cool there's places in my country where you can get by without a degree and nobody cares and even not too long ago other parts where flourishing due to the oil and gas industry and again you didn't really need any degrees or training, so it's kind of up to the person, and playing your cards right.

 

[Blackout]

Oh I forgot,

You could try something like this, I don't know if they have anything like that where you live.
But it's pretty comprehensive and in-depth but I have not officially signed up or taken anything yet but I think it's good for people like us who feel stuck in this sense. It's also wise to research job markets, economies, fields and etc and maybe even some history and read the news.
Vancouver & New Westminster Career Counsellor, CPCA Accredited, Call Rachel Newton 604-762-6756, Free Consultation
Careerjoy | Canada's Career Counseling | Career Counselor | Career Change | Career Advice | Career Test | Career Coach | Resume Writing | Career Expert | Career Change | Interview | Job search

Oh and I think a lot successful business owners didn't really go to business school, unless you just want to be a CEO of a large corporation. I suppose it might be better to either get a degree or find your way into a field or industry that you like and gain the experience to then later on open your own business in it. But yeah, I get a sense that running a business (outside of service industry) requires one being able to work through specific channels or put up with a lot of bureaucracy.

I mean I was just reading about the trials of an up and coming video game company had to go through just to get off the ground, but there's lots of different stories out there and I guess it's good to read some of them. That's probably one of the things that sell well now, video games and electronic or digital things. I would almost think you'd have to be like another Steve Jobs or something to really make a lot of money with business anymore though, or at least with the product and material side. I guess there's other markets that have taken that place in the digital market, etc. (but it's always about..."markets" isn't it?)

I always felt like too that, being niche or novel and just really marketing things well (and convincing people they need your product or service) was usually a large part of what makes a business successful; like just watching documentaries on Apple and I felt like that was a huge part of what they did, but I guess it is sort of an "art" form in a way, how you create or sell your products and market yourself.

 

[Blackout]

I just think it's so annoying when so many places have such rigid or mandatory expectations on how a person lives their life or what they do and what other kind of credentials they have at this point. Steve Jobs even himself admitted, who I believe at one point was considered the wealthiest man in American thought very deeply that people should always follow their heart's and intuition and to just do what they most love. He really believed that, but it's just...uh....rules.....rules....tradition...everyone is so obsessed with their rules, their god damn rules.

It really is just dogma at this point that hardly anyone even knows why they have, or they have strange insecurities that prevent them from accepting certain aspects or life or uncertainty.

 

[Forever]

 

[Galena]

No, but it's not for everyone, and not everyone who it's right for is ready for it yet once they decide to go.

That would certainly be more forgiving if not for the cost (speaking from and for a context where there is a great cost - that's not everywhere). But as it is today, you're paying a life-altering sum of money for several years of access to the extraordinary resources that characterize a college. It's quite possible to get your money's worth, but just as easy to not. Nobody will navigate it perfectly. But the more conscientious, self-aware, and aware of the world around us we are when we go into it, the better we're able to use our time, and our time there is limited and as valuable as it is expensive.

I personally don't feel I used it for all it was worth, and regret not taking a gap year first, for the following reasons:

If you're thinking of going to college, but living is already a struggle, consider a gap year for healing. Consider therapy, journal, find out more about who you are, root out issues like anxiety and low self-esteem that can cloud your perception of what's important to you. Face down any unhealthy external situation you might be in, claiming the time and space you need to think about the future.

If you're thinking of going to college (for younger people thn OP), but find the financial bits hard to understand, aren't feeling the gravity of debt yet, and maybe have never had a job before, try a gap year educating yourself before you take the plunge. Work a temporary job and live on your own if you can, learn about money from experience. Then look at those loan applications again.

Don't feel bad about needing the time - faster is not always better (believe me, I know so hard). And set a concrete endpoint for the gap, a precise date to start applying again.

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=27762]ThaumaturgicTheorist[/MENTION]

After reading a post as brilliantly written as your opening statement, I am absolutely bewildered that you would even consider referring to youself as "stupid". You clearly process things in a very deep manner, and possess insights far above what I would consider the norm. Whether your particular skill set reflects the personal qualities that would get someone ahead in the world of business is a different matter entirely, however I can see quite clearly that you would make remarkable contributions to whichever field it is that you do end up choosing. Yes, finding your calling is a very difficult process and it can take a long time to really get to the end, but this is something that many, many people struggle with. Remember that any time spent on things that you consider important to yourself is time well spent, and the external standards set up by society as to what is worthwhile are only one particular way to measure things. If your heart is telling you something, then listen to what it says. I know that you will go far.

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

[MENTION=27762]ThaumaturgicTheorist[/MENTION]

After reading a post as brilliantly written as your opening statement, I am absolutely bewildered that you would even consider referring to youself as "stupid". You clearly process things in a very deep manner, and possess insights far above what I would consider the norm. Whether your particular skill set reflects the personal qualities that would get someone ahead in the world of business is a different matter entirely, however I can see quite clearly that you would make remarkable contributions to whichever field it is that you do end up choosing. Yes, finding your calling is a very difficult process and it can take a long time to really get to the end, but this is something that many, many people struggle with. Remember that any time spent on things that you consider important to yourself is time well spent, and the external standards set up by society as to what is worthwhile are only one particular way to measure things. If your heart is telling you something, then listen to what it says. I know that you will go far.

That was flattering. People often tell me I'm intelligent because of how I write/speak. I know how "deep" I wasn't until a few years ago; processing things deeply takes effort (worthwhile for all its pain, imo), and I've read enough stuff about smart and gifted people and can't see myself in it, at all. I test average; I assume, from the path of my life so far, that I am average. I don't seem to be interested in typical "intelligent" topics. In fact, I've seen highly intelligent and philosophical people, truly "deep" people point out the folly of things I value or enjoy, which is hardly encouraging.

I failed out of college the first time, but, like I said, if I could magically make myself good at math and science I'd go into engineering, or maybe astronomy. More likely the former - there are more applications, and it relates more to stuff I care about. I've been toying with finance too, though. Like I said, my problem is I don't know what the hell I'm best off studying, and I feel like I have too many past failures to even bother.

I need to reteach myself math. That could fix so many things. I'd been talking to my mom lately and even she points out my early math education was abysmal. I missed a lot, it seems. At the very least it would open up more opportunities.

Low standards are a HUGE issue too. It leads not only to poor preparation, but to an exaggerated idea of what talent or skill is.


EDIT: I realized part of this sounded like a humblebrag. It's not. Feeling fraudulent isn't fun and what feel like empty, false compliments get irritating fast. If you're going to call me smart, do it when I actually do or say something brilliant or insightful, not when I'm writing my silly stream of consciousness. Because I know how smart that doesn't sound; that's just my brain.

 

[Pionart]

That was flattering. People often tell me I'm intelligent because of how I write/speak. I know how "deep" I wasn't until a few years ago; processing things deeply takes effort (worthwhile for all its pain, imo), and I've read enough stuff about smart and gifted people and can't see myself in it, at all. I test average; I assume, from the path of my life so far, that I am average. I don't seem to be interested in typical "intelligent" topics. In fact, I've seen highly intelligent and philosophical people, truly "deep" people point out the folly of things I value or enjoy, which is hardly encouraging.

I failed out of college the first time, but, like I said, if I could magically make myself good at math and science I'd go into engineering, or maybe astronomy. More likely the former - there are more applications, and it relates more to stuff I care about. I've been toying with finance too, though. Like I said, my problem is I don't know what the hell I'm best off studying, and I feel like I have too many past failures to even bother.

I need to reteach myself math. That could fix so many things. I'd been talking to my mom lately and even she points out my early math education was abysmal. I missed a lot, it seems. At the very least it would open up more opportunities.

Low standards are a HUGE issue too. It leads not only to poor preparation, but to an exaggerated idea of what talent or skill is.

I'll just say for now, that if a "truly" intelligent person is pointing out the "folly" of your actions, chances are they're intelligence isn't that true.

I'm literally a genius, but I'm too drunk right now to make much of a reply, so I'll get back later with more thoughts on the subject.

 

[Pionart]

That was flattering. People often tell me I'm intelligent because of how I write/speak. I know how "deep" I wasn't until a few years ago; processing things deeply takes effort (worthwhile for all its pain, imo), and I've read enough stuff about smart and gifted people and can't see myself in it, at all. I test average; I assume, from the path of my life so far, that I am average. I don't seem to be interested in typical "intelligent" topics. In fact, I've seen highly intelligent and philosophical people, truly "deep" people point out the folly of things I value or enjoy, which is hardly encouraging.

I failed out of college the first time, but, like I said, if I could magically make myself good at math and science I'd go into engineering, or maybe astronomy. More likely the former - there are more applications, and it relates more to stuff I care about. I've been toying with finance too, though. Like I said, my problem is I don't know what the hell I'm best off studying, and I feel like I have too many past failures to even bother.

I need to reteach myself math. That could fix so many things. I'd been talking to my mom lately and even she points out my early math education was abysmal. I missed a lot, it seems. At the very least it would open up more opportunities.

Low standards are a HUGE issue too. It leads not only to poor preparation, but to an exaggerated idea of what talent or skill is.


EDIT: I realized part of this sounded like a humblebrag. It's not. Feeling fraudulent isn't fun and what feel like empty, false compliments get irritating fast. If you're going to call me smart, do it when I actually do or say something brilliant or insightful, not when I'm writing my silly stream of consciousness. Because I know how smart that doesn't sound; that's just my brain.

Part of the problem here is that we seem to have different ideas of what things are considered "smart". I mean, what sort of things do YOU think "smart" people enjoy, and what are the things that you enjoy that are not "smart"? Chances are, you're identifying intelligence with only certain kinds of intelligence and ignoring the other kinds which are equally valid.

Calling you smart was not empty. I'm good at sizing people up, and from reading your initial post, I sized you up as "smart", that's all there is to it.

Also, if you'd like any help learning maths, I'd be happy to help if I have the time. I have some experience with maths tutoring, and helping people to learn is one of my passions.

 

[Tater]

a degree doesn't guarantee you even an entry-level job, but unlike many certifications, nobody can take it away from you.

certifications sometimes require continued education to upkeep, and can even be revoked if you violate ethics, policies, or standards. look in to whatever cert you're considering to understand the conditions you must meet.

degrees, on the other hand, tend to be more permanent and reliable for fleshing out your resume. furthermore, college is an effective way of obtaining a common body of knowledge concerning whatever field you wish to enter.

you rarely gain such a broad understanding when entering directly into the workforce.

if you're thinking about getting an online degree, don't even mention the fact that it was online when your credentials are invoked by an employer. only do so if pushed.

certifications aren't necessarily to be avoided either. find out how others have made it to your desired end-goal, factor that in to how you may as well and what your constraints are. do you, and don't give up.

 

[Kullervo]

College is a waste of money unless you are trying to accomplish one of two things:

1. A STEM, law or business degree
2. Training in a practical art (e.g. music, theatre, design)

Degrees like History, English and Political Science are a complete waste of money. Do that online if at all.

I also feel that vocational training is underrated. There is an elitist stigma against it, but you engage in a much more dynamic, creative type of environment than you would at a university.

 

[Coriolis]

I also feel that vocational training is underrated. There is an elitist stigma against it, but you engage in a much more dynamic, creative type of environment than you would at a university.

I agree with this. College used to be academically oriented, for those who wanted to teach, write, or do research, etc. Now it has turned into job training for the masses. Nothing wrong with job training, just do it in a setting designed for that purpose, whether a vocational school, apprenticeship, the military, or simply on the job. Eliminating financial barriers to college doesn't mean that everyone should attend. Other routes to a productive and challenging career should be similarly available, and encourged for those so interested/inclined.

 

[Kullervo]

I agree with this. College used to be academically oriented, for those who wanted to teach, write, or do research, etc.

University administrators changed their focus for purely commercial reasons. By encouraging everyone to attend, demand outstrips supply and their coffers have swelled. You can see their cynicism in courses like "dance studies" which have no research value or CV status, but attract people who in the past wouldn't have come to study. This attitude has greatly reduced the quality of education on offer for all. Students are seen as "customers" rather than, well, students. The academic life doesn't appeal to everybody - it most certainly does not to me. But many employers now demand a Bachelor's Degree on CVs for even the most ridiculous jobs.

I feel confident enough in my intelligence to say that dropping out of college won't affect my income or career prospects. I have capital already and can go my own way. But most people can't say that, hence the problem: a surplus of mediocre graduates.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I just think it's so annoying when so many places have such rigid or mandatory expectations on how a person lives their life or what they do and what other kind of credentials they have at this point. Steve Jobs even himself admitted, who I believe at one point was considered the wealthiest man in American thought very deeply that people should always follow their heart's and intuition and to just do what they most love. He really believed that, but it's just...uh....rules.....rules....tradition...everyone is so obsessed with their rules, their god damn rules.

It really is just dogma at this point that hardly anyone even knows why they have, or they have strange insecurities that prevent them from accepting certain aspects or life or uncertainty.

To be honest I don't see rules to be wrong by default as much as many of the current rules are just dump or completely out of date. Plus students are often treated simply as merchandise that they will try to "sell" to the employers ... and if that doesn't work out that is your problem.