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How the sex bias prevails

avolkiteshvara

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Didn't read the whole thing, but I would say the difference is that with a tough male boss, most people interpret that straight out.

With a tough female boss, I think there are many more connotations that come with it........does tough lead into bitchy, emotional, etc.
 

CrystalViolet

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I think because even the most open minded men don't notice the behaviour, because they are climatised to it. I'm pretty sure my manager would actually be shocked and saddened if he knew I felt this way. Although, IMHO, it is women themselves, that reinforce this behaviour (I'm not saying you guys). I mean I'm sure you guys have experienced some women handing your change to a male friend, partner or what ever even though you paid (this sets my teeth on edge), and it's not just older women who do this, or the bitchy tear downs at work. In one place I worked I was the most qualified person there, as well as being extremely capable and confident. It was quite obvious from the start I had a bit more respect from the "male" boss, but I was single and young. They nit picked, and harrased me until I was a nervous wreck. Reported every word I said to the boss, until he obtained quite a twisted perception of me. I was there for four months. Have you guys ever noticed how many females, mainly baby boomers, instantly get thier heckles up, because you are younger, (and for me I believe the single thing is a factor), so with out opening your mouth, you are instantly on the outer, and they will constantly undermine you, and make passive agressive attacks on your authority. My sexuality often gets bandied about, or I'm having affairs with male colleuges (I have an awful lot of sex I don't know about.)
At one job, a good male friend found out we were supposed to have had a passionate affair, after I left. He used to joke "he should have made it more fun for me, except neither had known about it. Although according to that place he was a man whore.
Some groups of women, make it so much harder for other individual women out there.
 

Salomé

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^Why should women be any more immune from institutionalised sexism than men are? If you grow up in a society that considers women to be the "second sex" it takes an incredible strength of will to overcome indoctrination. Women are always happier to criticize other women than men, because the devaluation of women is more socially acceptable, in every sense. Few men excoriate their own sex in this way.
It isn't balance.
I do believe that there's a generational component -- I truly think that this will get better (for women) in the future. I think that it *is* better than it was... it's just taking time.
I don't think it is getting better, I think it was getting better but for the past decade it's been getting worse. And it's getting worse because most people don't think there is a problem.
 

Kasper

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I don't think it is getting better, I think it was getting better but for the past decade it's been getting worse. And it's getting worse because most people don't think there is a problem.

Agree.

People often talk about feminists in the negative light, there's an assumption that because men and women have the same rights that there is equality so there is no room for feminist issues anymore, men and women alike express that opinion. It's like because a woman can work or study or do whatever she wants she has equality, but being treated as an equal in the work place isn't something I've witnessed. It's certainly way better than it was, but not equal, as rights improved dramatically people expect that to be the end of it. There's a common belief that we live in a time that is post racial and sex base inequality, like that was our past. It's not.

I'm sure there are some industries where it's better than others because of the number of women involved but in the male dominated industry that I work in a few women can see that they're treated differently yet most think, or at least say, nothing of it and even defend why it's so. The only female who's shown the same kind of contempt that I feel about the sexist attitudes is an ISTP co-worker, the rest just think it's boy's being boy's when they have to rely on woman for menial work that isn't part of their job or accept as a normal occurrence that they should automatically be willing baristas because they don't have a dick. They're told it's normal so why think differently.
 

FDG

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How is this balance? What you are saying is that women excel where they are assessed purely on the basis of competence (i.e. in education) yet in spite of that, they are discriminated against where it actually matters - the workplace.

Well, it's not a "normative" balance. I don't think it's an optimal equilibrium. It just seems to be a "natural" way to re-align possibilities. The optimal equilibrium would be a more male-friendly school life, along with (equally important - both components are required to reach equilibrium) a more female-friendly work life.

not necessarily "men", but the "give up my life for my job" mentality that I think tends to be more prevalent in men than women

I think men would enjoy changing that attitude, too. Perhaps, if it really has to be such, then a higher share of telecommuting might do the trick when it comes to pregnancy. Btw, so far in my life I haven't seen any less share of women in "management" roles, but since the only places where I've worked are university and videogame industry, there might be a certain natural skew.

Didn't read the whole thing, but I would say the difference is that with a tough male boss, most people interpret that straight out.

With a tough female boss, I think there are many more connotations that come with it........does tough lead into bitchy, emotional, etc.

My personal preference is towards a tough female boss. I become competitive/argumentative with tough male bosses. Even the toughest female boss is easier to reason with than your average tough male boss, IME.
 

CrystalViolet

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^Why should women be any more immune from institutionalised sexism than men are? If you grow up in a society that considers women to be the "second sex" it takes an incredible strength of will to overcome indoctrination. Women are always happier to criticize other women than men, because the devaluation of women is more socially acceptable, in every sense. Few men excoriate their own sex in this way. I don't think it is getting better, I think it was getting better but for the past decade it's been getting worse. And it's getting worse because most people don't think there is a problem.
You are right. I agree.
There's been some thing of a back lash against equality and feminism.
I feel there is little one can do if other women find this behaviour acceptable. If you protest, you are lying bitch as well as paranoid.

I don't know if I just got hyper aware because I'm in a small town, that seems about 20 years behind. I can't even wear a low cut top (not revealing), or a fitted one without men in this place trying to cope a perv, or talk to me staring at my chest. I'm talking about nicely cut stuff that you would wear in the city to work, not yards of flesh he
 

runvardh

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Ever work with a group of women and then a man joins that group, even as a peer? Automatically he assumes a position of leadership, and the women typically accept this. Most of them will even fawn over him ... stroke the male ego.

This doesn't happen everywhere and calling bullshit on me will be like me calling bullshit on your situation. I walked in and as soon as I was done training everything became my fault. Asking others to pick up on their end was often like asking a brick wall and once nearly got fired for wanting to know how the day is going. The only people I got respect from were the ones who dealt with the accounting which my job partially entailed. I'm quite glad I'm out of there.

On the other hand, women still having to deal with this kind of crap is a piss off. I try my hardest not to be part of the problem, but that's one out of how many... Just keep in mind there are some of us guys who have suffered the opposite too.
 

Haphazard

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See, apparently school-life is female friendly.

However, as a female, I've been reviled all through school, only tolerated because of my grades. Aside from grades, I am the scum of the earth.

I heard that this might change for the better as soon as I get into the real world, but according to this, it will not. It will only get worse, and worse and worse because there's money at stake instead of simple prestige.

Someone. Please. Kill me now. I have no reason to live anymore.
 

ragashree

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See, apparently school-life is female friendly.

However, as a female, I've been reviled all through school, only tolerated because of my grades. Aside from grades, I am the scum of the earth.

I heard that this might change for the better as soon as I get into the real world, but according to this, it will not. It will only get worse, and worse and worse because there's money at stake instead of simple prestige.

Someone. Please. Kill me now. I have no reason to live anymore.

If you don't mind saying... what on earth has been happening there? :huh:
 

Haphazard

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What is then? I can only assume some kind of fitting in and playing the social game...

Extracarriculars through the school are the most important thing. If you're not doing what they offer then you're not doing anything at all, you're a lazy ass bitch even if you're taking 4 AP classes and an advanced math class as the community college and countless things on your own and with people who have no connection to the school. It doesn't count unless it is right in front of them, you see, it's unfathomable that you do things outside of the school and outside of your peer group.
 

ragashree

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Extracarriculars through the school are the most important thing. If you're not doing what they offer then you're not doing anything at all, you're a lazy ass bitch even if you're taking 4 AP classes and an advanced math class as the community college and countless things on your own and with people who have no connection to the school. It doesn't count unless it is right in front of them, you see, it's unfathomable that you do things outside of the school and outside of your peer group.

That's maybe not so surprising, it sounds like they have a kind of hidebound loyalty to their own institution and care more about it than the achievements of their students, as such - and expect you to do likewise... I'm wondering if it could be one of those socially prestigious schools; they tend to discourage independent individual achievement to some extent because a lot of students take success in life for granted, and to arise more through networking and status than academic performance. It's alright to do well, as long as you don't do TOO well, and show the others up... Or I could be completely wrong, I don't know much about you after all.
 

Salomé

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See, apparently school-life is female friendly.

However, as a female, I've been reviled all through school, only tolerated because of my grades. Aside from grades, I am the scum of the earth..
Sucks to be INTJ. :D
 

Totenkindly

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Great article, thank you for posting it.

The case of the transgendered woman was quite disturbing. This is pretty common in male-dominated fields, but the opposite happends in female-dominated fields. For example, a male friend of mine works with emotionally troubled middle-schoolers. All of his coworkers are women, and they interrupt him constantly, and don't listen to him the way they listen to other women.

Which is a great point. It's not necessarily a male/female thing, it's mostly that the dominant crew rewards those who are similar and punishes/restricts those who are taken less seriously. In an environment dominated by women, women's rules will prevail.

Still, there's a lot of weirdness that goes on.

I have a m2f friend who is a pharmacologist out west. She transitioned on the job a little over a year ago. She's generally low-key in personal demeanor but professionally can be a Type A personality when it comes to problem resolution.

The environment is generally female, within the medical facility, and she has female staff over her. She reports that when she was working as a male, she sometimes made unilateral decisions and was rewarded on performance reviews for making those decisions even if she disrupted the chain of command. However, after she transitioned, when she repeated the behavior, she was dragged in front of her female superiors and officially disciplined (receiving a bad mark on her performance review). The major difference is that she was now a female.

It appears some type of dynamic changed, it's just hard to determine whether it was a gender shift that put her within the "official scope" of those in charge now, or maybe whether her behavior was disruptive before and the care people had to take with her transition burned up her capital reserve or what....

There's been some thing of a back lash against equality and feminism.

I felt like most of it was just because feminists were dictating women's behavior through the 80's and 90's, but frankly there were a lot of women who were more moderate in approach and found some value in more traditional "female" activities (such as motherhood) and they once again felt like someone ELSE was now telling them who they had to be and what they had to do with their lives.

Anytime a position becomes too extreme, a backlash will build up. (It's the same reason Obama took so much crap over the last year; if people hadn't touted him as the Second Coming, the public negativity would not have been as severe.)

...the rest just think it's boy's being boy's when they have to rely on woman for menial work that isn't part of their job or accept as a normal occurrence that they should automatically be willing baristas because they don't have a dick. They're told it's normal so why think differently.

Yes, I've experienced that... although it's hard to tell whether it's because of the job or the gender.

Typically the women are more likely to make coffee and/or ice in the lunchroom at my old job ... but because they're more sensitive to other people than the T-style men tend to be. Still, I've seen the guys do it too.

I had this weird thing where I ended up doing supply orders for my department. I started doing this before my change, so I don't think it was entirely gender-related, and the other aspect was because I was a documentation person and they didn't want to tie down the programming staff doing supply orders... bad use of resources, I guess. When I switched to a developer position, despite my other changeover, that duty was eventually moved to the other documentation writer... who was also female. Female programmers (of which maybe we had maybe 1 other one in the whole department) were not expected to do that task.

Still, it gets weird gender-wise because of the gender skew in the departments. We have had very few hard-core developer staff who are female -- over my 12 years there, maybe only 3-5% of the entire staff? (And I think they were all of either Russian or Indian descent, aside from me!) Thus what might look like gender bias might just be role prioritization; the women are more likely to take the support-oriented positions to start with (documentation, tech support, testing, etc), tasks that might pay less, thus out of everyone they are automatically nudged to do the "junk tasks" too.
 

Haphazard

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That's maybe not so surprising, it sounds like they have a kind of hidebound loyalty to their own institution and care more about it than the achievements of their students, as such - and expect you to do likewise... I'm wondering if it could be one of those socially prestigious schools; they tend to discourage independent individual achievement to some extent because a lot of students take success in life for granted, and to arise more through networking and status than academic performance. It's alright to do well, as long as you don't do TOO well, and show the others up... Or I could be completely wrong, I don't know much about you after all.

I can't say the school is "prestigious." It's not a private institution -- all the teenagers there are forced to be there by law. There's no encouragement for anything outside of school. Whenever I say I write they say I should write for the newspaper (even though that's a completely different writing) and whenever I draw they say I should be in an art class (even though my crammed school schedule left no time for art), anything I do is not allowed to speak for itself but instead must have someone else speak for it, because a piece of writing is not good unless it has a recommendation behind it. Those at school are not allowed to think for themselves but must allow someone in a position of power decide for them. If I'm not rubbing shoulders with someone at the school (even if I do with professionals outside), it's absolutely worthless. I could have several published novels and they wouldn't give a shit, and class me as the same as those who go back home and get high every day, never doing any homework and never doing anything to prepare for the future.

Sucks to be INTJ. :D

Are you going to do it or should I just kill myself?
 
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