Why is the British academia so snob?

[Haphazard]

Most of the exchange programmes the British universities have, are specifically designed to attract fluent English-speaking students only.

Even if this were true, then an exam would be sufficient in figuring out who is "fluent" enough to attend, like the TOEFL exam requirements for McGill in Canada and many universities in the United States rather than just blocking out students from countries where English is not a main language.

I'm going to guess unfriendliness toward continental Europe for this one.

 

[tinkerbell]

There's brand, then there's reputation, then there's straight up legend..........

Exactly my point

 

[FDG]

Got bored, but admittedly I was a little lazy about the search (Wikipeda):

Technische Universität München
- Founded in 1868

Politecnico di Milano
- Founded in 1863

Technische Universiteit Delft
- Founded in 1842

École Normale Supérieure-Ulm
- Founded in 1794

Tōkyō Daigaku
- Founded in 1877

Massachusetts Institute of Technology
- Founded in 1861 (opened 1865)

University of California, Berkeley
- Founded in 1868

Harvard University
- Founded in 1636

University of Cambridge
- Founded c. 1209

University of Oxford
- Unknown, teaching existed since 1096

University College London
- Founded in 1826


There's brand, then there's reputation, then there's straight up legend..........

First degree-granting university of the world was in Bologna tho :hi: so the "oldest institution" point is kind of moot.

 

[tinkerbell]

Well it's not moot if the Op is trying to get a legend to tout his message

 

[runvardh]

First degree-granting university of the world was in Bologna tho :hi: so the "oldest institution" point is kind of moot.

Not if you compare histories since 11th and 13th centuries to those since only the 18th and 19th centuries. Basically comparing the mentioned institutions not which country has the oldest institution of all time on record.

Edit: Actually, by what I found, only UCL doesn't have the history to back itself up when it comes to how they treated the request Blackmail has been sending out.

 

[Blackmail!]

Even if this were true, then an exam would be sufficient in figuring out who is "fluent" enough to attend, like the TOEFL exam requirements for McGill in Canada and many universities in the United States rather than just blocking out students from countries where English is not a main language.

As a matter of fact, they use an exam to determine who is worth to join their doctorate courses. It's the IELTS, and it is considered to be more reliable than the TOEFL.

In the IELTS, the scale varies from 1 to 9 (expert user).

Most ordinary native English users score as low as 5.5. The average British student scores 6.8.

While most British and American universities "only" require a score of 6 for foreign students (a reasonable demand), Cambridge's architecture department requires a score of 7.5 on average and 8 in written English: a score that would be extremely hard to reach EVEN for a native English student.

So it's ridiculous. I'm wondering how many Japanese candidates from the Todai could qualify, if any.

I see it only as a tactic to discourage them.

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And the worst is that Cambridge's Architecture department is not that awesome, even if it's not that mediocre either. Anyway, many of our courses are far better than theirs, and require more technical and designing skills -especially our bi-cursus with Polytechnique/Ponts et chaussées/ESTP (1)-.

I'm going to guess unfriendliness toward continental Europe for this one.

It's very likely. Deliberate unfriendliness, and for political reasons. Conservative euroscepticism, coupled with the fact they're already busy forming students from their former colonies (especially India). They live in another century.

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(1) In France, ESTP is an acronym that stands for Ecole Spéciale des Travaux Publics, a superior school for engineers.

 

[Blackmail!]

Not if you compare histories since 11th and 13th centuries to those since only the 18th and 19th centuries. Basically comparing the mentioned institutions not which country has the oldest institution of all time on record.

Edit: Actually, by what I found, only UCL doesn't have the history to back itself up when it comes to how they treated the request Blackmail has been sending out.

It's not a question about history. Oldest institutions aren't necessarily the best: Take for instance the Sorbonne, founded in 1253.
Yes, the courses are taught in illustrious buildings, some are even genuine Gothic halls. But the quality is not that great, only average.

Anyway, the best universities in the world have been founded during the 19th century, and most of them are American, not British.
If I could have the choice to join either Cambridge, Oxford or the MIT, I would choose the MIT: it's a no-brainer for me.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Most of the exchange programmes the British universities have, are specifically designed to attract fluent English-speaking students only.

It's exactly like if they lived in another century and believed their vast colonial Empire still existed.

Bitter much? Do remember just as France espouses the economic patriotique, countries like Scotland value free education for residents as a sacred right going back to the 15th century and thus we tend to be picky in taking in the correct number of oversees students while attempting to educate as many locals as possible to balance funding with opportunity.

Lets not bring our nationalist tendancies into play and remember that a large majority of English an a noticeable majority of Welsh and Scots do not consider themselves European or the EU to be anything more than extremely annoying and way to inflict unacceptable conditions upon us (speaking as a Scot myself).

Remember that Oxford and Cambridge are notoriously difficult to enter even as a Brit. I could have done so but considered then out of date and overpriced to the return on investment.

Perhaps you should consider Strathclyde, Edinburgh, Heriott Watt, St. Andrews, UMIST, ICL, Reading, Southampton etc. which are all world class institutions in their own right.



post edit: Also remember that most UK universities are both severly underfunded and overstreched in every way at this time and it is unlikely the government in the UK will want to wake up and smell the coffee on this one.

 

[Blackmail!]

Bitter much? Do remember just as France espouses the economic patriotique, countries like Scotland value free education for residents as a sacred right going back to the 15th century and thus we tend to be picky in taking in the correct number of oversees students while attempting to educate as many locals as possible to balance funding with opportunity.

Lets not bring our nationalist tendancies into play and remember that a large majority of English an a noticeable majority of Welsh and Scots do not consider themselves European or the EU to be anything more than extremely annoying and way to inflict unacceptable conditions upon us (speaking as a Scot myself).

Well... As far as I remember, unlike their English counterparts, the Scottish universities aren't known for their Euroscepticism. As a matter of fact, Europhilia is often considered as a way to emancipate and distinguish themselves from the English dominant ideology, and as a way to cock a snook at their southern neighbours.

Besides, we're not talking about a large number of students: it's a doctorate and post doctorate exchange program. It should concern only a few dozens candidates spread between the 12 partners (6 European universities, 6 Japan+S Korea).

Remember that Oxford and Cambridge are notoriously difficult to enter even as a Brit. I could have done so but considered then out of date and overpriced to the return on investment.

Perhaps you should consider Strathclyde, Edinburgh, Heriott Watt, St. Andrews, UMIST, ICL, Reading, Southampton etc. which are all world class institutions in their own right.

So far, our contacts with Scottish universities (Edinburgh, Strathclyde and Glasgow) have been rather good, while our attempts with English ones have almost always been disastrous, even if we have many acquaintances there we occasionally meet in scientific or educational congresses.

Scottish universities have all signed the Erasmus protocol with great enthusiasm, and the consequence is that in the school where I teach, more than half of our exchange students from Great Britain are Scots.

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I have contacted St Andrews, but as I said, I know nobody there. They have a very good Geography and Sustainable Development department, though. We shall see.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Scottish universities have all signed the Erasmus protocol with great enthusiasm, and the consequence is that in the school where I teach, more than half of our exchange students from Great Britain are Scots.

I have contacted St Andrews, but as I said, I know nobody there. They have a very good Geography and Sustainable Development department, though. We shall see.

Yes, at Strathclyde we had quite a lot of Erasmus students; the interesting affect being that many from Spain chose to stay and get a degree from Strathclyde when compared to their institutions for a whole host of reasons such as better structure, realistic expectations, future opportunities, teaching quality and the wonderful Scottish straight conversion Masters in 5 years; I think in my year group we took in about 6 or 7 of them and 1 girl from Bordeux.

St. Andrews is a tricky one; its very very exclusive and is a favourite hiding place for extremely wealthy Americans whose parents like to golf.

The best way to get in there would be to make contact through the other university contacts you have in the area; all university degrees and examinations in the UK are kept consistent by cross checking expectations and teaching syllabuses between the similar departments of universities to ensure quality and accreditation; thus your best entry point is through their peers who have had good experiences of working with you.

 

[Blackmail!]

Yes, at Strathclyde we had quite a lot of Erasmus students; the interesting affect being that many from Spain chose to stay and get a degree from Strathclyde when compared to their institutions for a whole host of reasons such as better structure, realistic expectations, future opportunities, teaching quality and the wonderful Scottish straight conversion Masters in 5 years; I think in my year group we took in about 6 or 7 of them and 1 girl from Bordeux.

Well... when you compare the Scottish weather with the Spanish one, they sure have to be EXTREMELY motivated!

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Anyway. In France, we have already met the same phenomena with students from southern and eastern Europe. They often try as much as they can to stay with us.

 

[matmos]

Most ordinary native English users score as low as 5.5. The average British student scores 6.8.

How's your statistics, Blackmail! Not up to much?

In a country of 60 million there's enough 8s and 9s to fight for a place.

A colleague some years ago applied to Oxford, having excelled at school. He was refused on the grounds that his Latin was not up to the job... They've always been like that.

Nonetheless, as a guide to quality, someone with a Oxbridge degree has proven themselves academically in a way someone with a very good degree in a new university (read: former polytechnic) has not.

It's entirely possible they look down on you, not because you are French, but because you are not academically "prestigious" enough... Why would they dilute their brand by forming associations with jumped-up European technocrats? /sarc

They live in another century.

Oh, yes.

If I could have the choice to join either Cambridge, Oxford or the MIT, I would choose the MIT: it's a no-brainer for me.

Without a doubt MIT, Stanford, et al.

Why are you that bothered about a KB from the crusties at Oxbridge? Do you want to will them into the 21st Century? Because they're not for moving. Your revolutionary zeal falls on deaf ears in the hallow'd cloisters of Oxbridge academia.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I was invited to study at Cambridge when I was in HS.

I studied international relations and terrorism. That was the summer before my Senior year.

 

[Blackmail!]

I was invited to study at Cambridge when I was in HS.

I studied international relations and terrorism. That was the summer before my Senior year.

I too have been several times in Cambridge (but not as a student), and have had several friends who studied there (mostly American friends). It's not that legendary, and once again, technically I was rather disappointed because I know several campus that provide better courses. That's why I showed no apprehension to contact them.

On the other hand, even if their real scientific skill seems to be greatly overrated, their snobbery seems well deserved.

The more I think about it, the more I'd say I perceive Oxbridge not as a tool for academic excellence only, but also as a social institution designed to segretate the old British gentry from the lower labouring classes.

Such institutions are only possible in a country with extreme social, cultural and economic disparities: that's probably why they do not look like anything we have in continental Europe.

What do you think of that hypothesis?

 

[InvisibleJim]

What do you think of that hypothesis?

I think your hypothesis is disappointingly subjective.

I personally believe that the lack of selectivity is actually causing a degradation of higher education in the UK, not an excess of it.

 

[tinkerbell]

I think your hypothesis is disappointingly subjective.

actually, BM may well have a point (and the dispartities, the uni thing is bonkers of course), presumably the UK poverty affluence gap is bigger than it has ever been (although I'm no ecconomist).

Jim you're Scottish then? Gosh I think that makes 3... CJ yourself and myself eweeeeeeeee

 

[tcda]

I think your hypothesis is disappointingly subjective.

I personally believe that the lack of selectivity is actually causing a degradation of higher education in the UK, not an excess of it.

So you just equated social "selectivity" with academic "selectivity"?

Have you seen some of the people who went to Oxbridge just because of their old school ties. I have, and it's not pretty. David Cameron and Boris Johnson anyone?

In fact, only someone with a subjective interest in doing so, could actually claim that the British public school elite are somehow "academically superior", rather than a bunch of uninspired technocrats trained in free market fundamentalism.

Such institutions are only possible in a country with extreme social, cultural and economic disparities: that's probably why they do not look like anything we have in continental Europe.

Many French industrial and public sector workers, and youths in suburban Paris housing estates, seem to disagree, old boy.

It seems someone wouldn't take their boss hsotage or torch a police car if they didn't consider there to be an "extreme social, cultural and economic disparity".

 

[InvisibleJim]

So you just equated social "selectivity" with academic "selectivity"?

They are inversely proportionate; the uptake for most UK universities is so open due to government initiatives to cram as many in that those with moneys are more likely to choose to pay extra to be more exclusive. If the uptake was more discriminating there would actually be less social selectivity.

 

[matmos]

Well, if you ask me, the last thing we need strolling through the hallow'd cloisters of Oxbridge are a bunch of oiks with a BA in Scribbling from some trumped-up market town "university"; or Johnny Foreigners with "revolutionary" ideas, claiming to be the best thing since Jean-Paul Sartre's last bunk-up. Or fry-up. (I prefer the latter).

Good day to you, sir.

 

[tcda]

They are inversely proportionate; the uptake for most UK universities is so open due to government initiatives to cram as many in that those with moneys are more likely to choose to pay extra to be more exclusive. If the uptake was more discriminating there would actually be less social selectivity.

So there was less social selectivity when there were less university places? I don't think so, the historical evidence says the opposite.

As long as private education exists, those who have it will dominate the top "best" universities. At the top public schools it doesn't matter how stupid someone is, the teacher will practically write your coursework for them until they get top marks. Cutting unviersity places won't solve that at all.