WTF I'm disadvantaged

[Haphazard]

There's this problem with literature classes --

oh hell. There's always a problem with literature classes.

But the current problem is a religious problem, I suppose.

Teachers aren't allowed to teach the Bible in school. However, kids are still expected to catch all the Biblical references in literature because apparently "it's just an integral part of Western literature."

WTF. This is like teaching kids calculus without teaching them Algebra first. How is someone supposed to know who John was if they were learning the Vedas instead?

Discuss what should be done.

 

[Sniffles]

They should learn the Bible.

 

[/DG/]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You should smack whoever came up with that with a newspaper.

 

[Haphazard]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You should smack whoever came up with that with a newspaper.

*rolls up newspaper

Get me the Board of Education!

 

[Usehername]

Art history students have the same problem in university, because there are periods of time in Western culture where art history is synonymous with church art history. Religious beliefs aside, if you don't know the stories of the OT which are thoroughly referred to in Shakespeare and everyone else, or the NT parables etc., then you're missing literary understanding (as you've well noted), so if they value Western literature, they need to teach the Bible (which is not the same as teaching the religious beliefs).

I see what the big deal is, but I don't think it should be a big deal. I have The Life of Milarepa on my shelf (interesting book) and have read excerpts of the Vedas (and when I find cheaper used copies of other religious texts I will buy them), it says nothing about my religious beliefs. I don't see how it should be any different for the Bible.

 

[poppy]

In my AP lit class senior year, the teacher determined that it was necessary that we read certain excerpts from the bible so that we would know what authors were referring to. I think that should be the norm.

 

[CzeCze]

You can read and teach religious text as a historical or literary text, not necessarily as religious canon. They do that all the time for Norse, Greek, and Roman mythology in school.

 

[Sniffles]

I read the first few chapters of Genesis in my mythology class.

 

[cafe]

I was pleasantly surprised to learn that I was advantaged. After a few years in a King James only Fundamentalist Baptist high school Shakespeare isn't all that hard to read.

 

[poppy]

I was pleasantly surprised to learn that I was advantaged. After a few years in a King James only Fundamentalist Baptist high school Shakespeare isn't all that hard to read.

Oh yes. I have much respect for anyone who's made it through that great tome. My eyes tend to glaze over unless I'm feeling particularly motivated.

 

[Orangey]

Teachers aren't allowed to teach the Bible? That's weird...my very much public high school had a whole "Bible as lit" class. I didn't take it, of course, because I didn't really like literature classes in general (except my myths class). But yeah, that's a bit silly to expect people to understand Biblical references if they hadn't been exposed to it in the curriculum. Don't your teachers just explain or provide the passages (or direct you to sources where you could read them yourself) that are necessary to understanding whatever primary text these references are embedded in? It seems like a simple problem to solve.

 

[run]

Well christians are probably afraid people won't teach it right, which is understandable.

But, it's silly to be offended by religious beliefs to begin with. If they're merely beliefs that point to no real objective truth, then it's like being offended by someone's favorite flavor of ice cream. If there is a God or a buddha or whatever, then it's no different than science. Some people believe there are 22 dimensions, some believe there are 11. No one is offended by any of this, and no one considers Physics class "an attempt to impose physical facts by force". So why do people consider the teaching of a religion as "imposing ethical facts by force"? Why are people offended by the teaching of the Bible?

If you taught me Buddhism, I wouldn't be offended, because I think it's wrong. If you told me "I think there are 22 dimensions", i wouldn't be offended - I would just say "I think there are 11, and here's why..."

 

[ilovetrannies]

Kids can google the goddamn bible if they need that badly for class. And if kids really need to learn the bible for lit class, than the islamic quran should be taught in history or L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics for psychic class.

My point is that the bible really that necessary in the school system?! If you think so, then all religions should be taught in school for all subjects that may be discussed in a book students might read.

If you can't tell, I'm a hardcore athiest, so I think religion should stay the fuck out our school system.

 

[Ingrid in grids]

Teachers aren't allowed to teach the Bible in school. However, kids are still expected to catch all the Biblical references in literature because apparently "it's just an integral part of Western literature.".

I know what you mean. I am taught the Bible at school (independent Christian all-girls school), and yet because my background is very atheistic, I still don't pick up on a lot of the Christian overtones/imagery/context/references that come up in my Literature coursework.
It was because of Lit that I first bought and read the bible for myself in the first place. Get an ESV bible - it's the best one to have as a ref. text. I think it's a pretty important part of personal education anyway, even if it's not your religion.

Well christians are probably afraid people won't teach it right, which is understandable.

But, it's silly to be offended by religious beliefs to begin with. If they're merely beliefs that point to no real objective truth, then it's like being offended by someone's favorite flavor of ice cream. If there is a God or a buddha or whatever, then it's no different than science. Some people believe there are 22 dimensions, some believe there are 11. No one is offended by any of this, and no one considers Physics class "an attempt to impose physical facts by force". So why do people consider the teaching of a religion as "imposing ethical facts by force"? Why are people offended by the teaching of the Bible?

If you taught me Buddhism, I wouldn't be offended, because I think it's wrong. If you told me "I think there are 22 dimensions", i wouldn't be offended - I would just say "I think there are 11, and here's why..."

As for teaching it in schools.... ahhh, this makes me think of my first Religious Education class when I first started high school at the age of 12. Our teacher told us that everything we learnt in that class would underpin our entire education to come and that girls who don't practise their faith or acknowledge God (the right God, that is) go to hell. Let me tell you, there were tears! Much of my earlier Christian education did feel a lot like "imposing ethical facts by force".
To some people this might seem a bit extreme and I'm sure many Christians would disagree with teaching faith in this way. But I also don't think many Christians would appreciate their religion being taught as having no real objective truth and being one of many equally right choices (at least the ones I know).
I guess this is why it really shouldn't be taught in schools, esp. since the ones these days are becoming increasingly multicultural and a Christian majority can't be assumed anymore. Still, studying the text as a text alongside Lit would be helpful

 

[Fluffywolf]

My point is that the bible really that necessary in the school system?! If you think so, then all religions should be taught in school for all subjects that may be discussed in a book students might read.

If you can't tell, I'm a hardcore athiest, so I think religion should stay the fuck out our school system.

Wether you're an atheist, agnostic or theist. Learning about religions (cultures and history in general) is never a bad thing.

I'm an atheist myself yet I studied many religions. If I had to say anything about it, I'd advise the rest of the world to do so too. There are still many lessons to be learned from religion, wether you believe or not.

Take for example Buddha and his teaching. To this day and age, his teachings can seriously help you understand and relate to many things. And I still get a lot of inspiration from him. Even though I'm an Atheist.

You're more like the type of Atheist that seems scared of religion because of wrongdoings done that are based on religion. This is common and when I was younger I related to that as well. But I'll let you in on a secret, people would be doing bad things if religion didn't exist as well. Therefor, it is not religion that is at fault, but the individuals that misuse it.

 

[ilovetrannies]

^^Buddhism is wonderful, however, it does not belong in school. I find religion to be fascinating, and yes, ancient people are better because it. And society may be better because of it. But this is 2009. However, it does not belong in school. I can not stress that enough. More important things are needed to be taught and the same religious rhetoric has no business in the school system of the United States or in my opinion anywhere.

 

[ilovetrannies]

Wether you're an atheist, agnostic or theist. Learning about religions (cultures and history in general) is never a bad thing.

I'm an atheist myself yet I studied many religions. If I had to say anything about it, I'd advise the rest of the world to do so too. There are still many lessons to be learned from religion, wether you believe or not.

Take for example Buddha and his teaching. To this day and age, his teachings can seriously help you understand and relate to many things. And I still get a lot of inspiration from him. Even though I'm an Atheist.

You're more like the type of Atheist that seems scared of religion because of wrongdoings done that are based on religion. This is common and when I was younger I related to that as well. But I'll let you in on a secret, people would be doing bad things if religion didn't exist as well. Therefor, it is not religion that is at fault, but the individuals that misuse it.

Whoa, People use religion as an excuse to do horrible things. I don't have a problem with religious people until they put in my face. Then I will politely tell them that I am not interested.

The forum should be used for opinions, so no need to be condescending.

 

[Athenian200]

The bible text is available for free online, along with simplifications and explanations. It really is kind of absurd that you're expected to pick up on something they don't teach, though, I'll admit. Then again, it seems like people are always unfair and insistent on things that don't make any sense where you live. Even more so than here. In my school, we tended to avoid classical literature for that reason, and focused more on books written after the 1950's. When we went over Shakespeare, the biblical references were all explained in the textbook as we went along.

I do think it's a bit ridiculous how much literature alludes to the bible, and it just shows how much Western culture has been enslaved by Christianity for eons.

One important thing to note, though, is that it's not really necessary to know the whole bible. They really keep referencing a few images over and over. One of the easier things to do is to try looking up essays on the book you're reading, and a bunch of them will point out all the biblical allusions. Then, you can go look up what they were alluding to and... you've got it. After you've done this with a few books, you'll know all the images and recognize the most common allusions. Don't panic, the Bible is a pretty simple book. And you're Jewish, you already know half of it. The longer and more interesting half, in fact. I know the New Testament is boring (there isn't as much war), but people seem to like it, so...

 

[Fluffywolf]

Whoa, People use religion as an excuse to do horrible things. I don't have a problem with religious people until they put in my face. Then I will politely tell them that I am not interested.

The forum should be used for opinions, so no need to be condescending.

I wasn't condensending, just wanted to refute the oh so common "Religion sucks because people abuse it" arguement.

 

[cafe]

Kids can google the goddamn bible if they need that badly for class. And if kids really need to learn the bible for lit class, than the islamic quran should be taught in history or L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics for psychic class.

My point is that the bible really that necessary in the school system?! If you think so, then all religions should be taught in school for all subjects that may be discussed in a book students might read.

If you can't tell, I'm a hardcore athiest, so I think religion should stay the fuck out our school system.

I'm religious, but I agree that religion shouldn't be taught in schools in any kind of proselytizing way. But still, when something has been a major part of a culture for a thousand plus years, it's hard to understand certain aspects of that culture without an understanding of its religious texts and history.

If my kids are going to understand Western history and Lit, they need to have some knowledge of Greco-Roman religion, Judaism, and Christianity (and probably some stuff that isn't coming to mind this time in the morning). If they are studying world history or lit, they need to know stuff about Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam etc.

I'm okay with a world religions class and I'm okay with teaching kids the relevant religious subject matter needed in order to understand the subject at hand. I don't want them to have a shoddy education over misplaced paranoia.