worst type for the military

[Nighthawk]

Also: To whomever made the comment about NTPs not putting up with training because it'd be pointless, I disagree. If I joined the military, I could accept the training for a shit-ton of training, the basics of which is that the training is used to protect my life. That's a pretty good fucking motivator.

The big problem I had with much of the training was that they didn't tell us why we were being trained a certain way. It was just "shut up and do what we tell you." Much of it didn't seem to have anything to do with protecting my life or waging war. Many times, if I had been informed why it was important, it would have worked better for me. When they started explaining the rationale behind the methods in officer school, then they started getting my full buy in. After that, whenever I had to deal with training soldiers, I tried to explain the rationale. It seemed to work for some, but most didn't really care and were just content to follow orders.

 

[Nonsensical]

I'm not trying to say that INFPs cannot make great soldiers or officers ... just that I didn't see very many during my time in uniform. The vast majority were SJ and SP. Of course the vast majority of the population is SJ and SP ... so that could account for the skewing. I still believe however, that the more letters you have differing from ESTJ, the more difficult time you will have in most military units. Also freedom fighters and rebels usually don't subscribe to the orthodox military regulations and structures ... which is part of what makes them so effective.

I do see your points about NF passion and its application to a military cause. That is something I had not considered.

I agree with you there. I guess the fact that there as so many more S's than N's has something to do with it.

 

[stigmatica]

Here's a true military scenereo, and a question for all you NT's and NF's...

On many occasions in the military, during winter (or the opposite in summer), the post uniform assigned included a very very warm jacket. Because they said so, you were REQUIRED to were a bdu jacket outside. Some day's, especially toward the end or beginning of winter, you'd have an unusually hot day. Guess what? You are NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE YOUR JACKET OFF, until the command to do so comes down the pipe. At best, your day would be half over before it did, at worst, they wouldn't even bother.

How would this effect you? I found this, and many things like it, highly frustrating. I wanted to go beat somebody over the head for the stupidity of it.

Edit: I'll give you that I was in a special unit, maybe things were more relaxed elsewhere in the military.

 

[Nighthawk]

Here's a true military scenereo, and a question for all you NT's and NF's...

On many occasions in the military, during winter (or the opposite in summer), the post uniform assigned included a very very warm jacket. Because they said so, you were REQUIRED to were a bdu jacket outside. Some day's, especially toward the end or beginning of winter, you'd have an unusually hot day. Guess what? You are NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE YOUR JACKET OFF, until the command to do so comes down the pipe. At best, your day would be half over before it did, at worst, they wouldn't even bother.

How would this effect you? I found this, and many things like it, highly frustrating. I wanted to go beat somebody over the head for the stupidity of it.

I experience this quite a bit. It was very annoying and I bristled at it. I also had a quilted comforter sewn inside of my military issue wet weather jacket ... so I could stay both dry and warm. When my superior saw that, he forbid me from wearing it. Heaven forbid doing something that makes sense.

Also, we were not permitted to use umbrellas when it rained, because it looked "unmilitary."

 

[stigmatica]

I experience this quite a bit. It was very annoying and I bristled at it. I also had a quilted comforter sewn inside of my military issue wet weather jacket ... so I could stay both dry and warm. When my superior saw that, he forbid me from wearing it. Heaven forbid doing something that makes sense.

Also, we were not permitted to use umbrellas when it rained, because it looked "unmilitary."

Yep.. I think for those that have not experienced it first hand, they do not understand the extent and depth that these annoyances run in the military. In all things it is assumed that the soldier lacks all common sense or intelligence, and for the greater good, he must adhere to the manual and orders from above. From everything to how you wear your clothes, how you talk, how you walk, how you live, how you eat, how you sleep... Those who are happiest in the military are those willing to let the currents sweep them where they will. Those who fight the current, or question where the current goes never quite settle in, and therefore never find contentment.

 

[Athenian200]

Here's a true military scenereo, and a question for all you NT's and NF's...

On many occasions in the military, during winter (or the opposite in summer), the post uniform assigned included a very very warm jacket. Because they said so, you were REQUIRED to were a bdu jacket outside. Some day's, especially toward the end or beginning of winter, you'd have an unusually hot day. Guess what? You are NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE YOUR JACKET OFF, until the command to do so comes down the pipe. At best, your day would be half over before it did, at worst, they wouldn't even bother.

How would this effect you? I found this, and many things like it, highly frustrating. I wanted to go beat somebody over the head for the stupidity of it.

Edit: I'll give you that I was in a special unit, maybe things were more relaxed elsewhere in the military.

Actually, that specific thing wouldn't bother me. I've always refused to take my jacket off on a day I had decided to wear it, even when it was hot, because I was afraid of losing it or forgetting to put it back on, and because the idea always made me feel "sloppy," somehow, to partially disrobe in the middle of the day.

I guess that's idiosyncratic J behavior. This just goes to show that no matter where you go, you're going to find a few rules or ideas that align with your own tendencies, and many that don't. I'm quite obviously a terrible fit for the military given my sensitivity and paranoia, and yet now I can't say that I have nothing in common with them or their way of thinking. Interesting.

 

[swordpath]

I say mostly any type that's stable and responsible can fend just fine in the military. I would say certain types may be at more of a disadvantage, due to the value and focus of certain branches. For instance your experience in the Marine Corps will greatly differ from that of the Air Force... Need I expound, just ask.

My .02 would be to agree with the consensus of INTPc as stated in the OP that INTP would be a hard fit, especially in the Marine Corps (the only branch I have first hand experience in). It's very disciplinary and "do as your told". A lot of times, you're going to have shit-for-brains trying to lead you. It can be frustrating for any type, especially those who like to think outside of the box and challenge/question authority like it's going out of style (I have an INTJ friend here who's all over this).

 

[matmos]

The basic methodology of military training is to break and recreate. In that sense all types would find a home in the military somewhere. I presume the military does require chefs, personnel officers, stores staff, all of which require different skill sets.

At a higher planning level, INTPs would probably feel at home; INFP would be happy in something like rehabilitation/therapy/PTSD councilling. IMO the military are far more open-minded than the majority of civilian employers.

Your army won't do much fighting if you can't find a chef...

 

[swordpath]

^Good points. Like I said, it's going to vary from branch to branch and then from various occupational specialties, like you said. The military isn't all guns and killing... Not by any means.

 

[Moiety]

Stop thinking INFPs would be the worst! Jone of Arc was an INFP (or so they say) and she stood up for what she loved and fought for her country. NFs are all about pride and inspiration..so if they were inspired to do so, they could easily. Not every single NF is completely passive, it's soo annoying when people stereotype NFs as being like that. Many of the best freedom fighters and rebels were NFs.

I see myself fighting, but never while taking orders from someone whose authority I don't recognize/acknowledge.

And who ever said NFs are passive is high out of his/her skull.

 

[Nighthawk]

The basic methodology of military training is to break and recreate. In that sense all types would find a home in the military somewhere. I presume the military does require chefs, personnel officers, stores staff, all of which require different skill sets.

At a higher planning level, INTPs would probably feel at home; INFP would be happy in something like rehabilitation/therapy/PTSD councilling. IMO the military are far more open-minded than the majority of civilian employers.

Your army won't do much fighting if you can't find a chef...

Very true. One thing I did enjoy in the military was the ability to hop jobs every 12 months or so. I was always learning something new and doing something different. Mind you, some of the jobs sucked and others were more fun ... but there was a lot of variety and you had the hope of something better on the horizon.

In combat arms there was the requirement of certain ticket-punching jobs that you had to perform ... platoon leader, company commander, operations officer, etc. ... but the other jobs were whatever was available in the units in which you served. I also did time as a personnel officer, maintenance officer, training officer and liaison officer. Always something new.

There were constants among all these jobs however ... namely all the rules governing how you would dress, act, talk, think, etc. Those were fairly uniform (and constrictive) across all the jobs I had.

 

[Kangirl]

Haven't read the whole thread but my kneejerk response to the question is an NTP type.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I served 13 years active duty in the Army, starting with 4 years of military school. It sucked. I alternatingly tried to convince myself I was an ESTJ or ESTP ... years before I even learned about type theory. In my opinion, those two are the perfect molds for the military. They love extraverts, sensors, thinkers ... and are very structured according to the judging aspect. The ESTPs get away with stuff because they often get results when they break rules ... so they are tolerated, even admired at times.

In my opinion INTP is among the poorest of fits. Disregard for authority and arbitratry rules was a big problem for me. I'm surprised I was never court martialed for some of the screaming matches I had with superiors over things they wanted me to do that made no sense to me. Lack of creative or intellectual outlets was also painful. You had to do everything by the book. Finding a better way was not tolerated. Extraversion was thought of very highly. I was frequently called to the carpet for not being outgoing or flamboyant enough. Apparently soldiers love and look up to flamboyant leaders.

I fit in the best when I morphed into an ENTJ/P for short periods (which took a lot of energy) and was able to apply creativity to battlefield strategy for unorthodox, but effective, solutions. The soldiers loved it because we kicked ass in unexpected ways. That was still a fight against many myopic superiors, who didn't like my methods, but at least I felt good about what I was doing. I did cultivate some allies (mosly unorthodox SPs), but also made a lot of enemies due to not following the rules or just plain old personality conflicts with jackasses.

I do believe that INFP might be an even worse fit however, given that every one of their preferences cuts across the military grain. I'm not saying these types cannot succeed in the military ... just that I think it takes a lot more effort than for an archtypical ESTJ or ESTP.

Hello Nighthawk, I'm Scott. The INTPc posts I mentioned reading from, you were the most common poster, and also I believe the person who prompted my starting this thread when you talked about INTP being perhaps or amongst the worst fit for the military. Anyways, it's nice to meet you and thank you for your service to our country. A little about me, I'm an AF brat, thought very strongly about joining the Army [Rangers or SOF], am an INFP, and got told by many people as a child that "I didn't seem the commando type". My dad said that a lot in particular. In addition to being an AF brat, I also spent time as a DOD civilian, and have martial arts training where a lot of our people had Army, Marine, or AF backgrounds. A number of those people were EF/SOF. One of my friends went to the AF academy, another was an alternate but did ROTC instead.

I'll have some more questions for you later...Again, it's nice to meet you, I'm rather humbled actually...Your posts are very informative and insightful and well-communicated. Maybe you could teach some of the INT's that I've met how do to those things, plenty of them were rather lacking in those categories...

 

[simulatedworld]

INFP, easily.

 

[Eileen]

INFP, INTP, INFJ.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I think NTPs would be worst in the Military.

Why do people always assume that NFs would be? NFs would have the honor to do such a thing, in my opinion..I know I'd have the honor. My uncle is an INFP and he was in Desert Storm and was proud to risk his life for his beliefs. NTs wouldn't find much logic in tedious drills and training and tactics would be difficult. NTJs would, however, make good Military leaders, but NTPs in my opinion, would most likely hate it the most.


Stop thinking INFPs would be the worst! Jone of Arc was an INFP (or so they say) and she stood up for what she loved and fought for her country. NFs are all about pride and inspiration..so if they were inspired to do so, they could easily. Not every single NF is completely passive, it's soo annoying when people stereotype NFs as being like that. Many of the best freedom fighters and rebels were NFs.

I didn't ask who would hate it the most, but who would be worst typological fit. Also,I never said that every NF is completely passive. Interestingly enough, I am an NF, and an INFP at that. I don't consider myself, or most NF's that I have met to be passive people.

The military is very ESTJ in character, especially the ground combat services and amongst the enlisted. I am a military brat, wanted to join the military, spent time as DOD civilian on a military installation, have military friends, and did martial arts training with a number of former military people, many of whom were EF or SOF. I think ST's tend to have plenty of beefs and/or lack of respect for NF's, and the VAST majority of military personnel are ST's. The vast majority of military leaders [and civilian leaders], are TJ's, most of those being STJ's. [At my DOD job we had MBTI training, and the person giving that had personally typed ~20,000 people in her career. She said in all her time she met only *1* NFP at Colonel or higher rank. He was an ENFP and when she asked him why/how he put up with it, his response was something along the lines "to take care of the others", a very NFP thought. But one, one! person out of ~20,0000. Another of her stories: some colonel or general had his office at this training. Said leader decided that N,F, P were all bad, and wanted to get the individual test results so he could kick out every N,F, or P on his team and replace them with STJ's!]. I've read posters on this forum mention how F's are "totally out of place" amongst the military, as in extremely rare. My friend who went to the AF academy told me a story how when he was early on there they got together in groups and talked about, amongst other things, why they joined. One woman mentioned human relief efforts [airlifting food and stuff] and seemed completely unaware that usually the military does other stuff, much of which involves training to kill people. "our job is to drop bombs on people" "warhead to the forehead", etc. Read some discussions, for example on INTPc, about INTP's in the military, here why they say N and P are bad fits in general for the military. Read why F's say F is often out of place in the military. Read all the INFP discussions in MBTI books saying "INFP's don't like bureaucracy, shouldn't work for the government, shouldnt join the military, etc". There are easons those things are said. Yes, any of the types I selected can choose to join the military, and some of them do, but MOST of them don't and are VERY underrepresented in the military.

Individuals can always choose for themselves what to do, and are of course free to buck trends and expectations. With that said, certain types of people often tend to choose certain kinds of work while generally not-choosing other kinds of work. Statistically, if you look at large groups of people, you'll find that certain types generally don't end up certain places. Again, any individual can choose whatever they want, but collectively such decisions are often infrequent.

Let me add one more thing: I'm an INFP, I've done lots of things that INFP's don't usually do, and in a lot of ways I feel like my life is a list of what INFP's should NOT do. By doing all sorts of things that INFP's "should not do" 1) I have lots of immediate in-my-face understanding of WHY INFP's generally don't choose to do those things, and 2) when I look around I'm usually the only INFP, and almost as usually the only NF to be seen. Did I do things the that I did? Yes sir! Was I the ONLY INFP around that I saw doing these things? Yes sir! Does that suck? Yes sir! Do I recommend it? Avoiding lots of expletives, let me just say "no, not one iota".

Again, any individual can choose to do what they want. But there are reasons and forces why types of people USUALLY don't choose to do those things. For those who do choose those choices, prepare for the possibility that you will be the only person like yourself.

 

[Mole]

The military have a real problem.

They want and encourage authoritarian personalities in the lower and rising ranks, but on the other hand, authoritarian generals are the easiest to defeat.

So the military system is set up to bring authoritarians to the top, and so sets itself up for defeat.

 

[Mole]

At my DOD job we had MBTI training, and the person giving that had personally typed ~20,000 people in her career.

MBTI is a complete fraud.

And the fact that the military have fallen for it hook, line and sinker, only illustrates how self defeating the military are.

So it seems that MBTI does appeal to the authoritarian personality, just as it does here.

And our enemies are very pleased to know how easily our military leaders are duped.

 

[Nighthawk]

Hello Nighthawk, I'm Scott. The INTPc posts I mentioned reading from, you were the most common poster, and also I believe the person who prompted my starting this thread when you talked about INTP being perhaps or amongst the worst fit for the military. Anyways, it's nice to meet you and thank you for your service to our country. A little about me, I'm an AF brat, thought very strongly about joining the Army [Rangers or SOF], am an INFP, and got told by many people as a child that "I didn't seem the commando type". My dad said that a lot in particular. In addition to being an AF brat, I also spent time as a DOD civilian, and have martial arts training where a lot of our people had Army, Marine, or AF backgrounds. A number of those people were EF/SOF. One of my friends went to the AF academy, another was an alternate but did ROTC instead.

I'll have some more questions for you later...Again, it's nice to meet you, I'm rather humbled actually...Your posts are very informative and insightful and well-communicated. Maybe you could teach some of the INT's that I've met how do to those things, plenty of them were rather lacking in those categories...

Pleasure meeting you too Scott. As you can probably tell from here and INTPC, the military is a topic near and dear to my heart. It's been a love-hate relationship from the start ... and I still have a lot of what I learned ingrained in me. For many years I did not understand why I was such a poor fit in the Army ... even though I tried very hard to assimilate. I eventually self-destructed through drinking too much and acting out by breaking regulations. It is a miracle they never took disciplinary action against me.

It wasn't until years after I got out that I discovered MBTI and put together the pieces of why I did not fit well in that environment. Sure, I could grit my teeth and put up a good front for a time ... but that took a lot of energy and burned me out. I was not remaining true to myself. It sounds like you've made a similar discovery. I believe that most N-types have to try harder to fit in well in a military organization, with the exeption of NTJs who seem to have the leadership/strategy combo down.

I found similar issues in some large, corporate environments. Any place that is too rule-bound and restrictive is usually a poor fit for me. That does limit opportunities at times, but I've been lucky enough to find some environments in which an introverted N-type personality can thrive a little better ... usually smaller companies.

I agree that any type can do well in the environment of their choice if they are motivated and talented enough. However, I also believe that some types fit some environments more easily. I just want Ns to be aware of the possible obstacles they could face in the military and make informed decisions.

 

[Nighthawk]

The military have a real problem.

They want and encourage authoritarian personalities in the lower and rising ranks, but on the other hand, authoritarian generals are the easiest to defeat.

So the military system is set up to bring authoritarians to the top, and so sets itself up for defeat.

In recent history, I have seen mostly SJ and SP officers rise to generalship. There used to be a leavening of NTs in there, ala' Ulysses S. Grant, Dwight Eisenhower, and such ... but that seems to be a thing of the past. I don't mean to leave out the NFs ... it's just that I've never run across an NF general in my studies or experiences. I imagine some have existed. Of course, I have no data to back up any of this ... just a feeling. It would be interesting to see a typographical breakdown of general officers in today's military.

MBTI is a complete fraud.

And the fact that the military have fallen for it hook, line and sinker, only illustrates how self defeating the military are.

So it seems that MBTI does appeal to the authoritarian personality, just as it does here.

And our enemies are very pleased to know how easily our military leaders are duped.

While I don't share your sentiments about MBTI being a fraud, I do believe that it is dangerous for the military to believe that they only need certain types to be successful ... rather than a leavening of all types. If they try to eliminate certain types, as the colonel Scott mentioned, then they are indeed asking for trouble. I've seen the same thing happening in Corporate Amerika, where a manager wanted only SJs working for him because they embodied his work ethic. Without different types to make up for each other's weaknesses, the organization becomes a lopsided caricature of its only strengths ... with great big gaps where the weaknesses exist.