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The SJ Dominance of Education

Snow Turtle

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May 28, 2007
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Hehe. Certainly reminds me of one of my ISTJ Chemistry teachers and some physics teacher.

"Right. What you learnt the last few years is completely wrong. It's just an extremely simplified version of things. Here's the new wrong theory!"

I don't think it's reasonable to blame SJs for the whole structureness and lesson plan issue. It's the education system itself that is extremely geared towards J structure and unneccessary paperwork blah blah blah. When teachers have to meet targets constantly, it's no wonder most end up becoming cynical, hoping to just push students through the system when their original thought was to teach. Think about it...

Teachers don't go into the career thinking: I'm going to be a drill sargent. Almost all want to be inspiring to children but it's difficult to do so when there's a whole load of stuff going on. It changes at college because there's more freedom to do what you want but still there's a large amount of structure involved behind the assessments and all that. Course this is just talking from a non-teaching perspective. It'd be more useful to get information from someone actually in the education system and what they think of it. Recoleta for example.
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
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I dunno. Perhaps because I'm a TJ type, but I didn't think school was so horrible except for required classes -- by the time I got to high school, I took almost exclusively accelerated courses and ended up with some teachers who actually knew something about the subject and weren't afraid to let it show.

Then again, I'm pretty sure that one of the biggest problems in public schools is throwing all the kids together for required classes. Different kids need different things and I've never met a teacher who can manage all level and needs of students in a state-required class at once.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I went to a private school, so it was a bit better.

Sometimes I really liked school, like my language classes were awesome!!! :D Other times I could barf whenever I had to take math - it was torture.

If you don't feel challenged, you just have to do extra stuff on your own. On the other hand, busy work keeps you from doing what you love, which sucks.

It also really depends on the teacher. For example, my language and history teachers were freaking awesome - entertaining but stuck to the topic, friendly but strict, understanding but demanding.

At my school, people were more willing to bend the rules. So I had honors classes for subjects I was good in and level 1 or 2 for math (because I suck at math).

In addition, if you wanted to take honors when it wasn't offered, they let you do independent study (YAY!!!!!!) to get honors credit and do what you want (as long as it was quality work). I did this for my Latin class, which is typically only a level 1 class, by doing an independent study project on the development of the English language from its Germanic origins to today. An interdisciplinary project involving history, literature, linguistics, etc., it really fascinated me and allowed me to get honors credit and do what I love.

When they offered French IV and Spanish IV at the same time on the same day, they offered me the chance to alternate between classes (basically I was in each class only 50% of the time) and do independent study for the things I missed so that I did not have to choose between the two. The only caveat was that I was not permitted to miss any assignments or tests.

Many teachers also gave you the opportunity to choose your own topics for papers or assignments. Although this option was not available for tests, it allowed you greater freedom.

This freedom within a structured environment gave me enough structure to not be a haphazard dumb ass (which I need due to Ne gone wild) but enough freedom to do what I love.

Dealing with fellow pupils, on the other hand, was a royal pain in the ass. All the drama was distracting from my work and intent. As a long-term thinker, I was always sure that I wanted to go to university, study abroad or do an internship or something in Germany, etc. So you had to separate yourself from the drama, which turned out to be a lonely time, especially for an extravert like me. It was rather depressing.

Not being able to take classes specifically designed for my future pissed me off, too. I wanted to study German and political science (that was only available senior year) or business and this was not possible at school. But then again, ambitious people can always do this in their spare time, so that's what I did.

Is education only for SJs? Or SJ dominant? I think it depends on your school. But I can't say that I was unhappy or restricted to an unfair degree.
 

Take Five

Supreme Allied Commander
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I don't think the SJs are out to get you. Most probably don't even know what SJ is. You get out of education what you put into it.
 

ptgatsby

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Yes. The NTJs do fare better at school than the STPs.
On the average only.
Neither group fits in.

Intuition is not N.
N is intuition.
Only the STPs have an intuition about how a theory works.
They are not locked in the theory.

The NTJs don't fit. The STPs don't fit.

No one fits.

It's highschool.
 

heart

heart on fire
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May 19, 2007
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What does "gifted" even mean if not IQ number and IQ number doesn't really relate to type does it? Type is more how you use what you got, not what you got? :D
 

ptgatsby

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What does "gifted" even mean if not IQ number and IQ number doesn't really relate to type does it? Type is more how you use what you got, not what you got? :D

It's somewhat related to type, along the N dimension. Gifted students primarily identify with being Ns. I suppose we can argue semantics, but... that's the eventual conclusion we will reach.

The argument isn't valid, however, the way it was presented. Intelligence - especially abstraction and the like - do not relate to knowledge at that age. The issue was that 'gifted' students aren't normally engaged at their maximum performance level, leading to boredom/etc.
 

pure_mercury

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It's somewhat related to type, along the N dimension. Gifted students primarily identify with being Ns. I suppose we can argue semantics, but... that's the eventual conclusion we will reach.

That's the traditional answer, but I wouldn't be surprised if newer data showed less of a correlation. Look how many SJ's there are and how many NT's there are. There are going to be tons of gifted SJ's.


The argument isn't valid, however, the way it was presented. Intelligence - especially abstraction and the like - do not relate to knowledge at that age. The issue was that 'gifted' students aren't normally engaged at their maximum performance level, leading to boredom/etc.

I think that knowledge has SOMETHING to with intelligence at all ages, don't you?
 

ptgatsby

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That's the traditional answer, but I wouldn't be surprised if newer data showed less of a correlation. Look how many SJ's there are and how many NT's there are. There are going to be tons of gifted SJ's.

I'd be happy to see the data. However, to approximate an answer, Ns have just over +1SD above normal IQ and make up 25% (to 33%) of the population. You can work out roughly the population makeup from this.

So yes, lots of overlap. But you also have lots of truck drivers that like poetry. It just depends on what you want to use the information for.

(Also, kids tend to be closer to 50/50 population re: N, so it's actually less equal early on)


I think that knowledge has SOMETHING to with intelligence at all ages, don't you?

*sigh* Marginally so, yes. In the sense that those that grasp earlier 'understand' more. The point is that they do grasp quicker, and then do not get fed anything else. Lockstep, but not in tune with ability.
 

Little Linguist

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I don't think the SJs are out to get you. Most probably don't even know what SJ is. You get out of education what you put into it.

That's right.

If you don't get what you need, you need to search for additional stimuli elsewhere. You also need to take the initiative. I have never believed in sitting on your laurels expecting someone to simply hand you everything you need on a silver platter.
 

Verfremdungseffekt

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Well, we're talking here about an institution that is set up to help people. Specifically in a field where one often needs help to know how to begin to ask for help.

It's not necessarily reasonable to tell a twelve-year-old, hey, you don't like what we're insisting you have to do or else be a failure to society? Well, it's on your own head then.

Everyone needs some kind of guidance at some stage.

EDIT:

That is to say, the whole point of learning is to empower people to think for themselves. So it's kind of ridiculous, when an educational system has failed in that mission to then go to the systemically powerless and say, dude, pick yourself up. What's wrong with you?

That's the whole problem to begin with.
 

swordpath

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In grade school through highschool, yes it does seem that you could classify it as being SJ, given the structure and the more strict atmosphere. However, in college I think it's all dependent on what kind of classes you're taking and who your professors are.
 

CJ99

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That's the traditional answer, but I wouldn't be surprised if newer data showed less of a correlation. Look how many SJ's there are and how many NT's there are. There are going to be tons of gifted SJ's.




I think that knowledge has SOMETHING to with intelligence at all ages, don't you?

Maybe but if you do it percentage wise then clearly NTs are more likely to be gifted. And i'm not even joking now.
 

CJ99

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Well, we're talking here about an institution that is set up to help people. Specifically in a field where one often needs help to know how to begin to ask for help.

It's not necessarily reasonable to tell a twelve-year-old, hey, you don't like what we're insisting you have to do or else be a failure to society? Well, it's on your own head then.

Everyone needs some kind of guidance at some stage.

EDIT:

That is to say, the whole point of learning is to empower people to think for themselves. So it's kind of ridiculous, when an educational system has failed in that mission to then go to the systemically powerless and say, dude, pick yourself up. What's wrong with you?

That's the whole problem to begin with.


^+1
 
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