The SJ Dominance of Education

[heart]

"In our dream...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science.

We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way." - John D. Rockefeller’s General Education Board, Occasional Letter Number One (1906)




In his 1905 dissertation for Columbia Teachers College, Elwood Cubberly—the future Dean of Education at Stanford—wrote that schools should be factories “in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products…manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry.”

 

[CJ99]

^and that is why education systems don't work.

Its ironic that the education system of most countries is geared towards SJs and making people do the things they are told to do the way they are told to do them when infact SJs don't need to be taught how to do that and the current system fails epically on making other temperments do that.


As to why NTs all think education is SJ dominated its probably because were the ones who stick out the most in school and then get the most shit for it. Because we like to point out to teachers that we are intelligent and we understood you in the first 5 min and that we did all that without following your rules. And that sort of attitude annoys most SJs, especially the huge number of STJs in schools.

SPs and NFs stick out as well but SPs can be kept in place with sports and arts and crafts type subjects and NFs generally aren't as agressive even if they stick out as much.

 

[heart]

SPs and NFs stick out as well but SPs can be kept in place with sports and arts and crafts type subjects and NFs generally aren't as agressive even if they stick out as much.

You have no idea how much a daydreaming NF can set a ESJ off... It doesn't take aggression, believe me.

 

[Thalassa]

Public school is geared toward SJs. In fact, I read in a book recently that as many as 50% of public school teachers are SJs (no wonder I hated high school so much). But I digress, college - academia, rather - is probably far more populated by NTs and NFs, though. It's not the same thing at all.

 

[pure_mercury]

As to why NTs all think education is SJ dominated its probably because were the ones who stick out the most in school and then get the most shit for it. Because we like to point out to teachers that we are intelligent and we understood you in the first 5 min and that we did all that without following your rules.

All gifted students do that, though. There's no type causation there.

 

[heart]

True, but people don't have to be "gifted" to be a round peg in a square hole nor to be misunderstood, etc. I've certainly never considered myself "gifted"

 

[pure_mercury]

True, but people don't have to be "gifted" to be a round peg in a square hole nor to be misunderstood, etc. I've certainly never considered myself "gifted"

No, I know, but I meant that specific example of finishing before everyone else, hating the regimentation, etc. In grade school, I wasn't just more intelligent than my teachers; I often knew more about the SUBJECT they taught us than they did. I wasn't very bashful about letting them know it, either.

 

[heart]

No, I know, but I meant that specific example of finishing before everyone else, hating the regimentation, etc. In grade school, I wasn't just more intelligent than my teachers; I often knew more about the SUBJECT they taught us than they did. I wasn't very bashful about letting them know it, either.

LOL, in grade school I often didn't even finish at all, I'd just decide I'd done enough, get a seventy and just float off into dreamland. Teachers would even get enraged at times but I just couldn't care. I did not care about much outside my own head.

They sent me for testing, saying I was subnormal intelligence. I came out normal in concrete thought, slighty behind in math, ahead in vocabulary and something like five years ahead of my age in abstract thought. (Which the tester seemed to think was something to pity me over) I don't think my parents knew what to make of that nor did anyone else, but then there were no more accusations that I was subnormal.

 

[Athenian200]

No, I know, but I meant that specific example of finishing before everyone else, hating the regimentation, etc. In grade school, I wasn't just more intelligent than my teachers; I often knew more about the SUBJECT they taught us than they did. I wasn't very bashful about letting them know it, either.

Really? I guess I can relate to some of that, but I'd usually just hide the fact that I had perceived their error and nod my head. If it were a particularly bad error, I'd go up to them after class and point it out discreetly, so they could claim they'd gotten their notes mixed up or something. They always appreciated that.

It's looking like I'm alarmingly compliant in some ways...

 

[pure_mercury]

Really? I guess I can relate to that, but I'd usually just hide the fact that I had perceived their error and nod my head. If it were a particularly bad error, I'd go up to them after class and point it out discreetly, so they could claim they'd gotten their notes mixed up or something. They always appreciated that.

It's looking like I'm alarmingly compliant in some ways...

I'd just raise my hand and say, "You're pointing at East Africa, but you're talking about West Africa," or "The Great Wall of China is NOT one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World."

 

[nozflubber]

Guys, the issue isn't that "SJs are supposed to like school more", the issue is that schoolteachers and schoolmasters/principles are predominantly SJ and thus SJs will have communication advantages, especially over SPs and NTPs. I really wish i would have had at least ONE fucking ENTP teacher in elementary school. SJ assbag after SJ assbag year after year really stifled the fuck out of my imagination, and I need my imagination to be illicited to see something (I dont hate SJs btw, i just presume the really smart/good SJs got better paying jobs)

 

[pure_mercury]

Guys, the issue isn't that "SJs are supposed to like school more", the issue is that schoolteachers and schoolmasters/principles are predominantly SJ and thus SJs will have communication advantages, especially over SPs and NTPs. I really wish i would have had at least ONE fucking ENTP teacher in elementary school. SJ assbag after SJ assbag year after year really stifled the fuck out of my imagination, and I need my imagination to be illicited to see something (I dont hate SJs btw, i just presume the really smart/good SJs got better paying jobs)

I have a B.A. and I am totally unemployed and broke right now.

 

[Athenian200]

I'd just raise my hand and say, "You're pointing at East Africa, but you're talking about West Africa," or "The Great Wall of China is NOT one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World."

Ah, there was one teacher (a psychology teacher), who specifically asked me to do that, and I did it in their class, because they wanted the situation to be more open, involve more participation.

With most of the teachers, though, I'd be afraid to embarrass them in front of their students. It might lead to a minor breakdown in respect and order.

So I guess mine would be more like:

*waits for everyone to leave*

*goes over to the teacher, says very quietly or at a whisper*

"Umm... ma'am, you know how you said <X> was this way? Well, I heard somewhere else that it was this other way [shows evidence if available], and I'm just wondering which one is right."

"Oh, yeah, I think I got that wrong. You're right, actually. It is that way. Thanks for not making me look bad. It's hard enough to keep them in line when they respect us."

"Yeah. Well, see you tomorrow."

So, I wonder what it is that makes some people more bold, and some more accommodating? Is it an I/E thing?

 

[pure_mercury]

Ah, there was one teacher (a psychology teacher), who specifically asked me to do that, and I did it in their class, because they wanted the situation to be more open, involve more participation.

With most of the teachers, though, I'd be afraid to embarrass them in front of their students. It might lead to a minor breakdown in respect and order.

So I guess mine would be more like:

*waits for everyone to leave*

*goes over to the teacher, says very quietly or at a whisper*

"Umm... ma'am, you know how you said <X> was this way? Well, I heard somewhere else that it was this other way [shows evidence if available], and I'm just wondering which one is right."

"Oh, yeah, I think I got that wrong. You're right, actually. It is that way. Thanks for not making me look bad. It's hard enough to keep them in line when they respect us."

"Yeah. Well, see you tomorrow."

So, I wonder what it is that makes some people more bold, and some more accommodating? Is it an I/E thing?

Perhaps. My S vs. N and F vs. T are pretty close, but my E is off the charts, and my J is quite high, too. If I'm right and I know that I'm right, I wouldn't want to be someone contradicting me, especially not an authority figure.

 

[Haphazard]

Huh. I was never good at correcting teachers about factual information. I was more of a pointing-out-flaws-in-policy kind of kid. I could get quite nasty when a way of doing something didn't make any sense...

 

[Orangey]

Huh. I was never good at correcting teachers about factual information. I was more of a pointing-out-flaws-in-policy kind of kid. I could get quite nasty when a way of doing something didn't make any sense...

Same.

 

[ENFJ_Catholic]

So over in the NT'S Opinion on school thread, it seemed almost unanimous that school is more geared towards SJs.

Do you agree with this?

Now it's obvious that SJs are drawn to these kinds of societal institutions, school seems to be made by and for SJs. Why do we allow this dominance?

Do you feel that the other temperaments could be better served by education? Focusing on their strengths? Is the potential of the other temperaments being fulfilled or is the time spent at these kinds of school being wasted and actually holding them back?

How could school have better suited your learning style? Did school prepare you for later life as well as you would have liked?

How do you think it could be improved to make the most of each type's potential?

I read some places ENFJs have the least trouble in school. I don't think this is a blanket case, but it is of note.

I'd make a case that there are more ENFJs in education though. It seems highly the case.

 

[wildcat]

NT think the entire world is geared for SJs. School and the like is geared for TJs. Ns do suffer a bit more because they are more likely to be bored, but I'd much rather be a NTJ in school than a STP in school.

What can you do to fix it? Same things that should be done to fix education in general. Bill Gates says it better than I can. The Gates foundation has a wealth of evidence-based suggestions... chances are, very few will ever come to pass.

Yes. The NTJs do fare better at school than the STPs.
On the average only.
Neither group fits in.

Intuition is not N.
N is intuition.
Only the STPs have an intuition about how a theory works.
They are not locked in the theory.

 

[wildcat]

I have a B.A. and I am totally unemployed and broke right now.

It does not matter what you have.
It matters what you are.

 

[nonsequitur]

I'd just raise my hand and say, "You're pointing at East Africa, but you're talking about West Africa," or "The Great Wall of China is NOT one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World."

Huh. I was never good at correcting teachers about factual information. I was more of a pointing-out-flaws-in-policy kind of kid. I could get quite nasty when a way of doing something didn't make any sense...

I did neither.

If a teacher was wrong, I'd keep quiet about it, verify privately that he/she was wrong, lose respect entirely and use this as an excuse to do other stuff in class.

If a teacher told me to do something that didn't make sense/was unreasonable, I'd do it, but privately despise him/her.

What I did speak up about was scientific stuff, e.g. general rules in chemistry etc. I'd ask when something didn't seem to conform to the rules, and generally the teacher would say something like "that's an exception, you'll learn more about it in higher level chem". It turns out that there are LOTS of exceptions to "rules"! (I now have a chem degree.)

School was exceptionally SJ because I went to a Chinese all-girls' school. I abhorred it, and am glad to be out.