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[SensEye]

That video is part of what I find so frustrating about the Ukraine war. Usually, there is all sorts of B.S. concocted to support military intervention on the basis of trying to establish freedom/democracy for the poor downtrodden citizens of the foreign nation, when it's usually profit (access to natural resources) that are the main goal.

The Ukraine war is all about freedom/democracy (no artificial rationalization required) and surprise, surprise, support is either lukewarm or outright opposed. I get that the whole problem is that there is no profit motive. However, if you are going to sing and dance about being a champion of democracy to justify military action even when it's not really true, when it is true, support should be a kind of default position, even if only to lend credence to the next song and dance when you want to invade purely based on a profit motive.

 

[The Cat]

Ah Shouldland.​

 

[The Cat]

Staying hopeful is not a choice.
Not if you want to stay in the fight.​

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

All this stuff on college campuses really strikes me as overkill.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That video is part of what I find so frustrating about the Ukraine war. Usually, there is all sorts of B.S. concocted to support military intervention on the basis of trying to establish freedom/democracy for the poor downtrodden citizens of the foreign nation, when it's usually profit (access to natural resources) that are the main goal.

The Ukraine war is all about freedom/democracy (no artificial rationalization required) and surprise, surprise, support is either lukewarm or outright opposed. I get that the whole problem is that there is no profit motive. However, if you are going to sing and dance about being a champion of democracy to justify military action even when it's not really true, when it is true, support should be a kind of default position, even if only to lend credence to the next song and dance when you want to invade purely based on a profit motive.

But that is the thing, Ukraine is HEAVILY about profits and economy. So I will repeat myself from about 2 years ago.

Vlad didn't blow up the world order just because he felt like doing that. This is basically why he did what he did and why the west decided to counter that move. Plus Ukraine back in a day was tech center of USSR, so it still has plenty of infrastructure in that regard. Therefore all of this is all about money, power and influence. This is exactly why it is imperative that the collective west supports the Ukraine. Since the bottom line is much less abstract than most people think.

 

[The Cat]

 

[SensEye]

But that is the thing, Ukraine is HEAVILY about profits and economy. So I will repeat myself from about 2 years ago.

Well it is for Russia/Putin. But not really for the west. If Russia takes over, the state (or corrupt actors on the states behalf) will more or less just move in an take over all the resources. So its profitable for them.

If Western support allows the defense of Ukraine, the situation will be back to where it was pre-2018. There is no big profit bonanza available to the west, so support for Ukraine is not where it should be. Trust me, if this was about the US getting/securing access to oil fields or the like, all the US political parties would be on board and the US would be 'manufacturing consent' for direct military intervention most likely.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well it is for Russia/Putin. But not really for the west. If Russia takes over, the state (or corrupt actors on the states behalf) will more or less just move in an take over all the resources. So its profitable for them.

If Western support allows the defense of Ukraine, the situation will be back to where it was pre-2018. There is no big profit bonanza available to the west, so support for Ukraine is not where it should be. Trust me, if this was about the US getting/securing access to oil fields or the like, all the US political parties would be on board and the US would be 'manufacturing consent' for direct military intervention most likely.

A significant chunk of Republican voters have an ideological affinity with Russia, seeing in it solid opposition to wokism. It's been a thing for at least 10 years, dating back to at least around the time of the annexation of Crimea; it just took a while to manifest.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Also, I think they are attracted to leaders who invade, capture, or annex territory.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well it is for Russia/Putin. But not really for the west. If Russia takes over, the state (or corrupt actors on the states behalf) will more or less just move in an take over all the resources. So its profitable for them.

If Western support allows the defense of Ukraine, the situation will be back to where it was pre-2018. There is no big profit bonanza available to the west, so support for Ukraine is not where it should be. Trust me, if this was about the US getting/securing access to oil fields or the like, all the US political parties would be on board and the US would be 'manufacturing consent' for direct military intervention most likely.

In Europe calling or considering it west is mainstream opinion. However I forgot that in North America that isn't really the case. What I should have said is "first world" or NATO. But none the less getting that pile of resources in Ukraine can really boost the whole first world in the terms of stability. Plus Russia would be weaken in the terms of various options globally. In the case you watched the whole video one of the points is that Ukraine is feeding good chunk of oil rich countries. Therefore if you control their food supply that can't be grown in their deserts ... that goes a long way of having an influence there. Plus if Ukraine falls there will be global impression that the west is indeed in decline. What can quickly shift various influences and trade routes towards the east.


However for many this war is something too abstract and in combination with various disinformation it is easy to "not care".

 

[SensEye]

A significant chunk of Republican voters have an ideological affinity with Russia, seeing in it solid opposition to wokism. It's been a thing for at least 10 years, dating back to at least around the time of the annexation of Crimea; it just took a while to manifest.

I see it more as them being sycophants of Trump, and Trump love dictators (he aspires to be one). And Putin is probably his favorite. Islam is also in solid opposition to wokism, but not many Republicans care for that.

@VG - I don't completely disagree with you, but it's moot in that is not my point. My point is that foreign military intervention is often wrapped in the cloak of championing freedom/democracy (even when it is not) and now in Ukraine, the freedom/democracy support issue is 100% correct regardless of any resource concerns. Yet support is lukewarm. The hypocrisy of it all is driving me bonkers. If there ever was a just foreign military intervention (in my lifetime anyways) Ukraine is it.

Compare and contrast 'bringing democracy to Afghanistan'. I knew that would be a shit show right from the jump, but everybody (i.e. US and the coalition of the willing) went whole hog. All for naught as it turns out. Kicking Russian out of Ukraine would be all for the good. Not just for Ukraine, but to send a message about conquest for gain in general. Not sure beating Russia back would stop China from taking Taiwan by force, but letting Russia win will guarantee China goes forward. And that is just the next pin to fall. There will be others once dictators see the trend (sort of like the recent coup fad in Africa - everybody's doing it!)

 

[Virtual ghost]

I see it more as them being sycophants of Trump, and Trump love dictators (he aspires to be one). And Putin is probably his favorite. Islam is also in solid opposition to wokism, but not many Republicans care for that.

@VG - I don't completely disagree with you, but it's moot in that is not my point. My point is that foreign military intervention is often wrapped in the cloak of championing freedom/democracy (even when it is not) and now in Ukraine, the freedom/democracy support issue is 100% correct regardless of any resource concerns. Yet support is lukewarm. The hypocrisy of it all is driving me bonkers. If there ever was a just foreign military intervention (in my lifetime anyways) Ukraine is it.

Compare and contrast 'bringing democracy to Afghanistan'. I knew that would be a shit show right from the jump, but everybody (i.e. US and the coalition of the willing) went whole hog. All for naught as it turns out. Kicking Russian out of Ukraine would be all for the good. Not just for Ukraine, but to send a message about conquest for gain in general. Not sure beating Russia back would stop China from taking Taiwan by force, but letting Russia win will guarantee China goes forward. And that is just the next pin to fall. There will be others once dictators see the trend (sort of like the recent coup fad in Africa - everybody's doing it!)

The key problem is that too many are simply drained by Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria etc. Plus their personal finances are bad. Therefore they don't want what they see just as the newest episode of the series. Even if Ukraine is completely different movie. Especially since here autocrats are invaders rather than defenders. Therefore if they win they will have new target in the near future. The story is surely much wider than just Ukraine.