[SJ] Fellow SJs, concerning relationships.

[FallaciaSonata]

Greetings.


In my psychology class we briefly touched on a Triangular love theory whilst discussing the psychology of human development. I like the theory for the most part. It got a few of my....cognitive cogs going, if you will.

The theory states that "love" is founded on three basic principals:

1. Commitment (self-explanatory)

2. Passion (Physical attraction, lust, if you will. Desire, I guess.)

3. Intimacy (Including but not limited to intercourse. Primarily this means the closeness of the two individuals in question --- how deep their knowledge of each other goes, I imagine.)



Now, a little disclaimer. I have a mental "to-do" list for life, and having a girlfriend or a relationship or whatever you wish to refer to it as is at the bottom. But lately I've been thinking a bit on this subject, mostly on how a relationship could benefit me.

Let me stop myself right there --- is that selfish?

Anyway. My thoughts tended to drift towards the idea that having an intellectual-equal or better, a companion of sorts, could be incredibly useful. I don't spend much time around people, or even my friends, but I've noticed that in my small group of friends I single out two of them that I find the most "intellectually stimulating", if you will.

This is partially why I was attracted to older girls (still am, for the most part) as a younger teen. The one I did attempt to get closer to wasn't interested. It wasn't really a....rejection, because I didn't really "ask her out", so much as I implied wanting to spend more time with her.

But alas, now I am older, and she is a strange little cookie, and I'm fairly sure I would have developed the same opinion of her had I been close, and that wouldn't have turned out so well.

I have come to an impasse. It seems that the older girls, or girls that I am attracted to (primarily for "intellectual stimulation", sometimes physically appealing) do not seem to want a "younger man". Or maybe they don't like me. That's probably more like it. Alternatively, the younger ones, some of which *do* like me, and have approached me on a few occasions, I find annoying in general. (You know, the crowd that wants a boyfriend because their friends have one, etc, etc.)

I've only had "two" "girlfriends" (heavy emphasis on quotes there) and I've been looking back at those "relationships" and what I have learned / can learn from them. The first one I began at age twelve, purely out of curiosity. I wanted to know what it was like to have a girlfriend, and why everyone else thought it was so cool to have one. I imagine that would fall under the "experimental" category. The relationship, as odd as it was, was also long-distance. After a month or so of e-mail exchanges she stopped saying important things. Our discussions went in reverse --- she was now speaking to me as if I were some stranger. "how are you today" and "nice weather, huh?". So I ended it. Politely, of course.

The second, however, I began for two reasons. This was around age 15 or so. The first was social pressure --- her friends kept driving me insane telling me to ask her out. They're lucky I didn't have a gun and bad disposition. The second reason was because I was already friends with her and enjoyed talking to her. The dark cloud came sweeping in once we had our "boyfriend/girlfriend" "title". It was....the worst thing ever. She changed on me, started acting odd, expecting things from me without letting me know first, looked at me in the strangest manner, and all of a sudden I started getting criticism for not complimenting her outfit on a Sunday.

This lasted for about a month, myself becoming ever more confused, until I snapped. A very mild snap, and mostly internalized. I politely broke it off, she seemed to take it quite well, and I thought that was that. Until I learned later that she cried herself to sleep and then my mother, sister, and a few others had some kind of.....agenda against me. I was suddenly a villain.

Did I miss something?



So I've learned a little, perhaps. I sense there is much, much, much more to learn as well. But I don't want to waste time experimenting. Have I merely had bad luck with girls, and there truly is one out there who thinks the way I do? Or am I this awful, uninformed monster of a boy who tears relationships apart and has no chance?

I now realize that was quite the read. I shall repeat/rephrase a couple of questions here at the bottom for clarity.

1. Any opinions on the theory? Heard it of it before?

2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?

5. Most of the above questions have been aimed at guys, so girls, do you think I am....strange? (Answer honestly --- you can't hurt my feelings.)

6. Are there any women out there who think somewhere along these lines, or is this a guy thing? Surely, there's someone.



Comments? Questions? Concerns? Opinions?

 

[Bubbles]

Hey, what's up. The NF came to answer you SJ questions.

1. Any opinions on the theory? Heard it of it before?

I have, actually! I like it. Personally, I've realized I'm highly demanding on intimacy and then I ease into commitment, but passion can be difficult (I'm not very sexual at all, to be frank). But all three together are necessary to have a completely fulfilling relationship. The SJs I know also prefer commitment and intimacy first, but I think they tend to ignore the passion part...don't find it necessary.

2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?

Eh...that's vague. Am I selfish for wanting a relationship for any reasons? I think any relationship works well if you can share thoughts and opinions and find yourself intellectually stimulated, though. If you're referring to using a relationship to "see what one is like," I can't imagine having that mindset at all. But it'd be best to find someone with the same mindset as you in that regard...some people might be offended.

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?

Do not know!

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?

I take forever to open up to men. Mentally and emotionally, really. So I don't even consider a relationship until I trust the person and realize I could be vulnerable with them. I'm a weirdo in this regard as well I suppose.

5. Most of the above questions have been aimed at guys, so girls, do you think I am....strange? (Answer honestly --- you can't hurt my feelings.)

Haha, I don't know! I can't imagine thinking like that. Dating = opening up yourself to someone else and trusting them, so it's SERIOUS BUSINESS. newwink I'd never do it lightly, but I'm NF, eh?

6. Are there any women out there who think somewhere along these lines, or is this a guy thing? Surely, there's someone.

Probably.

 

[BlackCat]

Have I merely had bad luck with girls, and there truly is one out there who thinks the way I do? Or am I this awful, uninformed monster of a boy who tears relationships apart and has no chance?

No, I wouldn't say so. You just seem to have had bad luck with that second girl. I think that you did the right thing. It wasn't a fault of yours that she said one thing, and did another (was okay with the breakup, then cried and people were set against you). It wasn't your fault that she was randomly criticizing you for not complementing her (attention whore much?).

1. Any opinions on the theory? Heard it of it before?

I've never heard of it before, but I'm in psychology right now so I'm guessing we will learn about it shortly. It seems plausible though.

2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?

Everyone's needs are selfish when it comes to relationships. You would be unhappy if you didn't have intellectual stimulation. I wouldn't do anything that didn't make you happy, since relationships are supposed to make people happy. I'm sure there are plenty of women out there, particularly T women, who would want a relationship for intellectual stimulation.

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women?

I prefer the older girls too. I'm 19, and I find myself regularly attracted to girls who are in their 20's. I run into the same issue with "you're too young."

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?

I haven't had experiences like yours in the dating area. But the second relationship sounds like a classic immature high school girl breakup story, I've heard stories similar to that.

6. Are there any women out there who think somewhere along these lines, or is this a guy thing? Surely, there's someone.

As I said above, your best bet would be a T of some sort, likely an NT.

Comments? Questions? Concerns? Opinions?

It was a good read. Your concerns are totally valid given your situation, I wouldn't worry.

 

[Snow Turtle]

1. Any opinions on the theory? Heard it of it before?

2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?

5. Most of the above questions have been aimed at guys, so girls, do you think I am....strange? (Answer honestly --- you can't hurt my feelings.)

6. Are there any women out there who think somewhere along these lines, or is this a guy thing? Surely, there's someone.

Comments? Questions? Concerns? Opinions?

It's one of my favourite theories on love since it breaks down things into smaller parts, and I can see how I'd fit on the triangle. Most of my love revolves around the intimacy and commitment, so when I discovered this theory, suddenly I realised that it wasn't that odd to not experience the passion element.

I feel that there are lots of marriage in the intimacy/commitment stage, having lost their passion. For me, I'm uncertain how much of a bad thing that is since my idea of a partner is a best friend - emotionally and intellectually. Course I wonder about the passion part, it does seem like an important factor, especially since it's usually the starting point with any dating relationship.

I suppose because I go through the whole "Let's become friends first. The passion part is deemphasised in my relationships" - I wonder whether this is true for other SJs or any type, that don't do the whole fall in love straight away method but slow burn things through.

Personally I don't consider that to be selfish. In some ways, I'd consider all people selfish if that were the case, because most people have an underlying motivation for their love. Course there are different degrees of altruism/selfishness.

Anyhow about whether it's odd. I once read on asexuality.org, a person that identified themselves as aromantic as well asexual. Yet they still had friendships around them...

Work that one out if you can?

It seemed odd because they didn't feel the emotional connection of a friendship, yet alone relationship and since there are also no biological urges in play as well.

You just end up asking? So why do they have friends in the first place? What puts them in that environment? Do they basically see friends as co-workers? Just people plodding along in their lives, that they don't particularly care about?

Clearly as a feeler and romantic. I'd be slightly biased but I couldn't really understand that perspective at all. The reasons they cited were all logical positions: That it's effective to have a partner in order to live - bills etc rather than the emotional fufillment element. Can't remember if they cited conversation stimulus as a motivation for being around people though.

Anyhow I don't see why wanting an intellectual partner is all that different from wanting an emotional connection at all. It's different priorities, but at the end of the day, it's basically preferences, no? I'm sure there are other people out there that share similar views on love and all.

 

[wrldisquiethere]

So I've learned a little, perhaps. I sense there is much, much, much more to learn as well. But I don't want to waste time experimenting. Have I merely had bad luck with girls, and there truly is one out there who thinks the way I do? Or am I this awful, uninformed monster of a boy who tears relationships apart and has no chance?

Well obviously only hearing one side of the story no one can say for sure. But from the information you have given, I don't see any reason for you to worry. I'm sure you're not a monster.

1. Any opinions on the theory? Heard it of it before?
I suppose I have heard of it before. It makes sense to me and seems to be true from my experience.

Although I will say that even as an SJ, I do have a tendency to be passionate in a relationship. I believe that is because almost all the time throughout each day I am maintaining control of myself, and it feels incredibly good to have moments of passion with the person I love where I can lose control and just enjoy the pleasure of getting totally caught up in the moment. It is glorious. I can't speak for other SJs though.

2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?
Intellectual stimulation may very well fall under the realm of intimacy for you. It is probably necessary for you to have a close connection with a person, am I right? I don't consider this to be any more selfish than other preferences that people have for a significant other.

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?
I have no idea about this. Before the boyfriend came along, I was often drawn to younger men (2-3 years), though. I'm not really sure why that was. When you say you prefer older women, how much older than you are you talking about? Also would you mind telling us how old you are?

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?
I don't know that I can relate to a lot of the things you are saying, but I definitely don't consider you odd by any means.

5. Most of the above questions have been aimed at guys, so girls, do you think I am....strange? (Answer honestly --- you can't hurt my feelings.)
No, I don't believe you are strange.

6. Are there any women out there who think somewhere along these lines, or is this a guy thing? Surely, there's someone.
I have a very good ISTJ friend. While I don't know whether or not she looks for intellectual stimulation primarily in a relationship, I do know that a lot of the things you have shared remind me of her and her struggles with dating.

Comments? Questions? Concerns? Opinions?
Don't be hard on yourself. There are girls that are compatible with you.

 

[hermeticdancer]

1. Yes, you are weird, and a bit obsessive.

2. Is it normal to want intellectual stimulation, and a nice, pretty, girlfriend-yes.

3. There is no "perfect job," "perfect relationship" etc.
And you can't change someone, so if you see "red flags" things that you don't like about someone in the beginning, chances are they are signs that they are going to bother you later.

4. Also, you have to make compromises and listen, and learn to be more flexible, in the future with your partner-when you find someone that satisfies, that is approximate to your ideal woman, because when you find her, you want to keep her.

5. ISTj's have to remember that there is no 100% compatibility, ideal people are annoying, have bad habits, silly, so on and so forth, but as long as they meet you basic criteria:
stable
loving
caring
intelligent
treats me nice
attractive

-DEAL with it
There are going to be ups and downs, so communicate, and you work on your issues too. Let them be themselves, and don't try to Fix everything all the time for them, and give advice, or retract into silence. Just be open honest, yourself, and caring, and try to be less judgmental, and accept the other person if you can. That is love.

6. We know what you are good at...Stability, listening, helping, safety, you are consciousness
Work on giving positive verbal feed back, giving physical affection, accepting others differences, being less judgmental, not trying to fix others "personal" problems, but just listening instead, do not give too much advice about personal issues, But instead try to express your own intentions and ideas, inner thoughts.

Be vulnerable, that may happen later in life, around your 50's. (So they say)

 

[Giggly]

I'm female and believe in the theory. You may enjoy reading this thread.

 

[hermeticdancer]

Also I wanted to add...

The Triangular love theory

1. Commitment
2. Passion
3. Intimacy

I came across when I took a class called Interpersonal Relationships. I have my BA in psychology.

The theory relates to a type of love, the authors suggest are the building blocks for a RELATIONSHIP.
or a long lasting marriage.

It's a mixture of what the ancient Greeks called love words like,

Agape-familial love
Eros-passion

and they add Intimacy to create the "triangle" where love just goes around and around in a nice triangle and comes back to you, supposedly.

Keep in mind this is just a theory, and it is not fact, I wouldn't base all your relationships off of it, it does have some biases, in that it is very,
Humanistic. And written by idealists, NF's themselves. They are not talking about Love of the mind, and sharing ideas, and thoughts and logic, it's more about romance. But being smart is sexy.

By intimacy, they mean, being vulnerable, or open.
Open to one another.

The ISTJ square of Love Theory

1. Commitment
2. Intellectual Stimulation-intelligent conversation (can also listen to me)
3. Passion-(attraction, good sex and commitment to keeping the love alive)
4. Intimacy-openness,transparency, honesty, comes from trusting them

I would limit your shape size, if it starts to become the Pentagon theory of Love, you might be looking at being Single for the rest of your life.

 

[FallaciaSonata]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

Just to clarify, someone asked how old I was --- I am currently 18. And when I refer to "older women", I mean anywhere from 1 to 5 years older than me. So, perhaps I should have said "slightly older".

Also, in addition, I would like to point out that this isn't a big deal for me, and I'm not worried about it at all. In fact, I think I like the idea of remaining single. I merely created this thread out of curiosity. (So, don't take it so seriously, hermeticdancer.)

 

[Sam Spade]

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?

I preferred older women throughout High School as well. I'm in a relationship with someone 1 year older than me and we both see no problem with it. In fact, we got into a relationship because we were initially attracted to each other intellectually. It's really awesome.

 

[Gerbah]

I think it's not unusual at all for men to be attracted to older women. I'm almost one year older than my husband. And the intellectual connection is important to both of us. He likes being challenged (ENTP).

 

[tinker683]

1. Any opinions on the theory? Heard it of it before?

2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?

3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?

5. Most of the above questions have been aimed at guys, so girls, do you think I am....strange? (Answer honestly --- you can't hurt my feelings.)

6. Are there any women out there who think somewhere along these lines, or is this a guy thing? Surely, there's someone.



Comments? Questions? Concerns? Opinions?

Hello sir!

The theory seems interesting enough, if a bit simplified. Commitment is probably the easiest one for me, with intimacy and passion (in that order) following. To answer your questions though (and I'll start on two since I kind of answered one already:


2. Am I selfish for considering a relationship primarily for intellectual stimulation?

Not if that's what you want. People want/need different things from a relationship so I don't see wanting it for intellectual stimulation as any different than what I'd like from it (emotional stimulation)


3. How common is it for men to prefer older women? How about the SJ crowd? How about ISTJs in particular?

My first girlfriend, and the woman I fell in love with, was 3 years older than me. Older women I have found generally have their stuff together much better than younger ones so I often prefer them (though this isn't always the case. My current crush is younger than me)

4. Has anyone had similar experiences, or am I the odd man out?

I've been in two relationships: The first one was truly wonderful but ended because we lived thousands of miles apart (LONG story about that one) and that wasn't ever going to change. I wanted someone I could cuddle up with every night and with our living situation that wasn't going to change...so I let it go (with a great deal of difficulty)

The 2nd relationship she had intimacy issues that became a real problem for me a few months into the relationship and after trying to get her to opening up and failing, I walked away.

So...no, I haven't had your situation

5. Most of the above questions have been aimed at guys, so girls, do you think I am....strange? (Answer honestly --- you can't hurt my feelings.)

Unorthodox certainly. Most guys I know want women primarily for sexual reasons. Like me, you seem to want a little more than that...just a totally different thing than me. But that's cool, whatever floats your boat.

In any event, I hope you find what you're looking for man

 

[FallaciaSonata]

Thank you for the comments.

I asked a question about how strange (if at all) I am to people for this thought process. I'm sort of wearing my brain on my sleeve here --- these types of thoughts are always internalized and never expressed. I do this for your input.

Sometimes I find myself "cornered" by people who always say this, or something along these lines: "Don't think about it, just do it", or "go with the flow," or "don't over-analyze it," etc, etc.

When they get to the "don't think" part, the rest of the words they say translate into gibberish to me. Telling someone like me to stop analyzing is like telling the government to quit spending money. It simply isn't going to work --- I was designed to think, and likewise, the governing body doesn't know how to do anything but burn cash.

And furthermore, if a woman wanted to enter into a relationship with someone, and for discussion's sake, let's say it's me, wouldn't you prefer that I put a lot of forethought, care, and planning into something this important?

Or would you have me go with the flow and just "hope" it works out OK, by mere chance, and when it fails, chalk it up to fate and move on? Because that seems like a bit of a waste to me.


Again, this is all just free-thoughts here. Nothing I say here is emotionally binding to me or anything like that. Just me, trading my thoughts for other input, that I might learn something.


....thoughts?

 

[Gerbah]

I'm sort of wearing my brain on my sleeve here --- these types of thoughts are always internalized and never expressed. I do this for your input. Sometimes I find myself "cornered" by people who always say this, or something along these lines: "Don't think about it, just do it", or "go with the flow," or "don't over-analyze it," etc, etc. When they get to the "don't think" part, the rest of the words they say translate into gibberish to me. Telling someone like me to stop analyzing is like telling the government to quit spending money. It simply isn't going to work --- I was designed to think, and likewise, the governing body doesn't know how to do anything but burn cash.

Ha ha, yeah, I also got that a lot, especially when I was your age actually (I'm 29). It used to really irritate me. Telling me not to think never stopped me from thinking. Now that I'm older though, I understand more what those people meant. Sometimes, thinking and planning and analysing will get you to a certain point but beyond that point more thinking isn't much use and can actually hinder you from progress or cause you unnecessary stress. I'm more aware now of when I'm probably at that point and am more open to the information I get from other non-thinking sources (although I still think a lot).

And furthermore, if a woman wanted to enter into a relationship with someone, and for discussion's sake, let's say it's me, wouldn't you prefer that I put a lot of forethought, care, and planning into something this important? Or would you have me go with the flow and just "hope" it works out OK, by mere chance, and when it fails, chalk it up to fate and move on? Because that seems like a bit of a waste to me. Again, this is all just free-thoughts here. Nothing I say here is emotionally binding to me or anything like that. Just me, trading my thoughts for other input, that I might learn something. ....thoughts?

For a woman looking for a serious, long-term relationship, then yes, your forethought is a good thing. And it seems that's what you want too, so I don't think you have a problem and it isn't strange.

 

[FallaciaSonata]

Sometimes, thinking and planning and analysing will get you to a certain point but beyond that point more thinking isn't much use and can actually hinder you from progress or cause you unnecessary stress. I'm more aware now of when I'm probably at that point and am more open to the information I get from other non-thinking sources (although I still think a lot).

....why didn't they just say that? That makes a lot more sense. So what you're saying is that thinking is definitely necessary, but it only does part of the job. Sounds....strangely logical. Thank you.

 

[Gerbah]

....why didn't they just say that? That makes a lot more sense. So what you're saying is that thinking is definitely necessary, but it only does part of the job. Sounds....strangely logical. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Yes, that's it. For example, listening to your instincts and gut feelings can also tell you a lot and show you the right way to go, things that thinking can't tell you because it's just not the world of thinking. If you try to apply thinking to the wrong thing, you will just get stuck or cut yourself off from other kinds of knowledge.

Also, from my own experience, too much thinking can cut you off from opportunities in the present that you don't take up or recognise because you're thinking. What I try to do now is to keep thinking (that is anyway second nature and easy and I won't lose it) while at the same time being open to taking a risk and just experiencing things without thinking about it first. I'll never be a natural risk taker or plunge into the deep end of things, but some of that kind of thing is I find good for balance and enjoying more of what life has to offer.