Perhaps sx/so aren't supposed to be 5s?
I wouldn't go that far.
That would seem more a convenient attempt to write something off than anything else.
Are you sure you're an INTP?
Imo, the solution is making it simple. Either the Enneagram alone fits or it doesn't. No need to add more variables to a system that is supposed to make sense on its own.
I take the opposite view.
I think what makes the enneagram interesting is the ability to make all those subtle distinctions.
And the instinctual variant stuff speaks to me so strongly, I would never want to throw it out.
Something interesting worth reading:
5w4 so/sx Consultant courtesy of jase
Take the supreme intellectual arrogance of the social Five and give it a personalized, one to one touch, and you get your very own personal expert wannabe.
5w4 sx/so "Revolution" contributed by jase
The most creatively energized and outspoken of Fives, they conceive of outlandish and idealistic alternatives to a reality they find deeply unfulfilling for the most part, and like to exhibit these radical visions, possibly through an art form if not through direct advocacy. Many sx/soc 5w4's are responsible for revolutionizing their creative fields, for better or worse. They aren't always comfortable in the visionary roles they might find themselves in, and may escape to extended periods of withdrawal to regain a sense of independence and security. This kind of retreat can surprise those who have mistaken them for a more conventionally driven, extroverted personality.
5w4 sx/sp "In their Own World" contributed by jase There's something oddly captivating about this Five, apt to wander through various conceptual worlds, as conceived in the minds of others, or of their own creation. They can appear perpetually sullen and immersed in emotional thought, giving the impression there's much more going on beneath the surface. This type of Five can easily be mistaken for a Four, though their range of expression is constricted. Curious about others though usually from afar, it's as if they're reserving themselves for the one element or person that would truly understand them. Despite intensity of desire, the sx instinct has difficulty asserting against the fearful inhibitions of the Five, along with the restrictive self pres close to the surface. They usually wait to be approached, but others should find them intriguing enough to initiate contact.
5w6 sp/sx contributed by jase
is the most private of Fives, not as emotionally detached but more socially oblivious. They would likely find their niche within a stable, low maintenance relationship, in a safe environment where they're insulated from the demands of others. They have an endearing quality uncommon to other Fives, so I see this type as more heavily Six winged.
5w6 sp/so "The Engineer". contributed by jase
Probably the furthest removed of all types from their own emotional life. The most practical minded and hardest working of Fives, prefer to work with complex physical systems over mere theory. In some ways this might be the purest version of Five.
5w6 so/sp "The Scientist" contributed by jase
the most hyper intellectual of all types, they value pure rational thought above all else. The most theoretical of Fives, not as hands-on experimental as the tinkering sp/soc 5w6, they seek to advance theory over technology. This may be the most recognized "face" associated with type Five, as seen in movies such as "A Beautiful Mind."
5w6 so/sx "The Goofball" contributed by jase
think of the main characters from "Revenge of the Nerds", a bunch of highly social, highly sexualized, irresponsible self pres lasters goofing off, at least that's how I remember it. This is probably the most Sevenish and outwardly humorous kind of Five, they value being smart but also want to be cool. I imagine several classic comedic performers were soc/sx 5w6.
5w6 sx/soc - "The Mad Theorist." The most mentally intense of all types, a speculative imagination teams up with a visionary intellect to produce an eccentric style that cannot stop theorizing on the frontiers of science, envisioning alternate realities, or predicting the future. Fascinated by the paranormal, the unexplained, the six wing adds a sense of conspiratorial intrigue. They possess abundant nervous energy and are anxious to discharge their thoughts onto others, though the forcefulness of their ideas and sometimes frenzied delivery may overwhem their audience.
5w6 sx/sp - "From Another Planet." Less attracted to mundane science, more likely to be captivated by the unusual and complex universes that populate cutting edge sci-fi. Slow to trust but driven to engage with others, may offer hints about their secret interests to test a person's receptiveness. They share their private ideas and knowledge as a way to get closer. This tactic may unintentionally win them many friends, but leave them just as removed from any romantic prospects. Not as nerdish though a bit on the odd side, others may find them strangely appealing. Overall, the most atypical 5w6, can be mistaken for 5w4.
...
Aww, how lovely is that. I have a hunch that it's mutual.
Totally.
They even gave me my own channel in vent.
p.s. If an INTP ever tells you ''no need to add more variables'', you should probably listen.
Yes, but as you may suspect, my thinking goes in the exact opposite direction.
Well there is a reason why I am pretty confidant in my vision.
Ok, that's all well-and-good, but your reasoning still needs to back it up.
Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Others say that you may be 5w6. However I am 5w6 and I claim/see that you are not that much like me. So I give myself the advantage since I am more aware of how it is to be 5w6. Plus I had alot of 6s around while I was growong up. (that is probably how I got my w6 actually)
Ok. the problem with this is that you seem to have completely missed the point of what mia said, as demonstrated by what you later write.
Everything you were pointing to seems to speak to the fact that you are withdrawn and I am not.
True, but that is not insignificant thing if we are arguing if you are naturally detached to not.
Actually, yeah, it is.
And this shows why you missed the point.
Someone who is detached but assertive is going to look completely different than someone who is detached by withdrawn.
You're pointing to my assertiveness and saying, "He's not detached", and what we're saying is, "You're just pointing to my assertiveness".
If the way I worked is that I was incapable of detaching whatever it is that is detached -- my emotions, presumably? -- from my analysis of an object, then I think you might have a point, but I don't think that I am, nor do I think that point to my assertiveness if a very convincing argument that I am not. That just shows that, after I analyze the object in an objective manner, I am assertive about it.
That is all that matters .... how much coffee you drink , what cars do you like .... etc are not that much important things if the question is how detached you are. If we are talking about how detached you are ... you and your detachment level must be in the center of conversation. (and that is why I am bringging this up)
Ok, but bringing up how much coffee I drink (although, this could have to do with it slightly, as coffee might make you wired, more assertive, and/or less detached, as it's a stimulant and affects your behavior -- a 5 on ten cups of coffee might well seem less detached than a 5 on no cups of coffee) and what cars I like are irrelevant examples compared to my instinctual variant being sx/so. My being sx/so will have a direct effect on how detached you
think I am. In fact, you have to really dig down deep and define what exactly it means to be detached, in light of the different instinctual variant possibilities, if detachedness is what you consider the hallmark characteristic of a 5, because a detached-but-assertive person (i.e, an sx 5) is likely gunna appear highly different than a detach-but-withdrawn person (i.e., an sp 5).
The problems with Mia's comment is that it actually has almost nothing to do with "the problem". (in my opinion)
I think the problem is that you didn't get her point.
She managed to prove that you are a Sx/So.
No, she didn't prove that I am sx/so, and your thinking that's what she did/attempted to do is why I don't think you understood her point.
but she didn't make any real argument for you being 5w6.
Actually, she did, and, once again, the fact that you don't seem to understand how she did is why I think you didn't understand her point.
She was simply saying, as I recapitulated, that everything you brought up could be explained away by the difference of you being an sp and me being sx/so. As such, your arguments against 5w6 were bunk. That is an argument for 5w6 (if only be negation of your arguments against 5w6).
Lets forget that 5w6 and Sx/So dont get along that well for a sec.
I don't see how this is going to be helpful, as this is the entire point.
We know that I'm sx/so.
Therefore that fact must be dealt with.
So when you sum it up the claims are
1. You are not 5 because ..........
2. You are Sx/So therefore you do this and this .
Which one of these claims says more about you not being or being a 5 ? (what is the real/original question)
As I figured, this would not be a valuable line of reasoning.
Nothing you have argued necessarily shows that I actually lack detachedness.
Everything you have argued could simply be your showing that I lack
withdrawnness and possess
assertiveness.
The only line that is here under fire is that you are a 5 and that is what I am targeting. Since you dont show plenty of type 5 traits.
I think I show plenty of detachedness.
In fact, if you want to know what's going on in my mind while I've been writing this it's a feeling of detachedness combined with a feeling of assertiveness. I don't feel anxiety, at least not much. There's sort of a very light background feeling of anxiety, but it's very small, almost non-existent really, and has more to do with just scanning the environment and making sure I'm not missing anything/getting all the correct points. It's really in service of detachedness (i.e., being objective). In fact, writing this post is swaying me more towards 5w6 (whereas before I was leaning 6w5), as detachedness and assertiveness are what are really going on in my mind, while nervousness/anxiety are largely non-existent.
While one the other hand we have a claim that you variant is atypical for 5w6 and a thesis that this is somehow increasing the chances that you are 5w6. Since everything is possible in theory and a choice should be done with a heart. Even if categorization of traits exists and it is fairly clear.
I dunno.
I read this and think that you clearly just don't get it.
It's not that it increases the possibility (why should it ever have been decreased to begin with?), it's that the possibility remains open.
And the categorization of traits you mention is once again missing the point, as the whole idea is that you are mistaking 5 traits for sp traits, and conflating sx/so traits with not-5 traits.
I am dont want to be rude, it is just that you simply dont give a type 5 vibe to me.
It's no problem.
It's just, I don't think you're being objective.
You don't seem to understand how a 5 sx/so would look very different from a 5 sp.
The fact that you don't think I give a 5 vibe can be explained away by the fact that, in your mind, a 5 wouldn't have the traits of an sx/so.
What you'd effectively need to show is how I am not detached, in spite of my assertiveness.
That, underlying my assertiveness, there is not a detachment.
And that's assuming that this is the valuable distinction to make between 5s and 6s.
Are 5s really perfectly detached? And 6s not? I dunno...
(you asked for the opinion and simply gave mine)
No, your opinion is appreciated, as it helps sharpen the distinctions needed to be made.
I hope you do see now, though, based on the above, why your line of reasoning is flawed.
That's not to say that you're wrong -- I could be a 6w5 (check my profile) -- it's just that your reasoning doesn't prove anything, nor does it really come close to disproving the opposing thesis (that I'm a 5w6 sx/so).
There are some good points but I think not being able to resonate with someone isn't always the best barometer to determine someone's type.
Especially when it's clear and obvious that one is an sp and the other is sx/so.
Those are two very different stackings, with two very different vibes.
Is it that the instincts really explain the disparity or are they used more as a tool to explain away the 6w5?
I think it's that the instincts present a question that must be dealt with in trying to find the true answer.
Then there's the even further-back question of whether the enneagram is legit in the first place...
But, for the moment, I'm willing to put the latter aside, and just try to figure out the former.
After reading the whole thread, I have no opinion on the matter... it's a toss up for me. I am just curious.
Per [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]'s recommendation, I'm gunna check out the Naranjo book '
Character and Neurosis', which, from what I've been able to tell, is supposed to be the best book there is on the enneagram. I'm also gunna take the test [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] recommended.