I recognize the mechanics you've illustrated here in many of my past-present interactions with INFJs - even that residual "sticky" feeling that exists because, while your logic might be mutual, communication as a whole (consisting of subconscious implications, gut feelings, and psychological muscle-memory) fails.
That makes sense re: why it's sticky. And in that (or expanding on that) ... in my case, feeling that way about someone I love so deeply adds an additional layer for me. Best I can describe it initially is: a clash between love/deep connection and this experience of "opposed positioning" - which is different from simple disagreement. For me, it's like being in some sort of weird reality where the physics of connection don't quite make sense to me. That can disorient me to some extent and makes it harder for me to get out of the sticky as quickly as I would like to.
My point is that even in that space between you and your INFP, I believe you can lend each other tools of understanding to further your shared goals. Do you ever feel like that's happened?
I really don't know. Our experience so far has been that understanding differences in our cognitive processes has helped us understand, and increasingly to resolve, tensions in our relationship that seemed to come out of nowhere for no reason when we didn't know it was about differences in cognitive processes. We've discussed the possibility that these differences may be used as strengths, but so far that hasn't revealed itself as a pattern that I'm aware of.
Of course, we do have areas of our lives in which we work extremely extremely well together. The most obvious is creative work. We work
really well together on shared creative projects. We have different and complementary skills, a great mutual process in which disagreement can happen and is just fine, we flow together and naturally each bring our strengths, and what we create is better for all of it. But interestingly enough when it comes to the business aspect (what to do in the world with the products of our creative flow), we don't work well together at all and that weird tension comes up again.
A tangential thought from our conversation, but one directly pertaining to the general topic - there is something to be learned in the silence of non-communication, through introspection. I believe INFJs excel in this regard, and I think it's possible they may, at times, expect others to do the same in the case that they've severed their ties. Does that ring true to you?
Not for me. In my case, when I step away from a person or group, I have
zero expectations of them. I mean zero. I don't do it to affect their behavior or learning or anything like that.
I note the same kinds of conflicts between INTPs and INTJs. We agree, but we disagree as to what the "best proof" is. I can only imagine how this translates to the INFJ/INFP conflict: you agree, but, um, well, there's something seriously wrong about the other person's perspective ... and in Feeling-land, that can turn into a suspicion that the other person's values are somehow corrupt. (Just as I read INTPs continually insinuating that INTJ reasoning is corrupt, and vice versa.)
Interesting. Never thought about it exactly this way. One additional wrinkle, IMO, is that F is the dom process for one (INFP - Fi) and the aux process for the other (INFJ - Fe). Same with INTP/INTJ and Ti/Te. I mention this because I continue to suspect that the differences in dominant processes is important as well - meaning introverted perceiving versus introverted judging.
The only thing I can think of to ameliorate that is to realize that such suspicions are egotistical, that somehow you yourself know the "right way" to consider things, and that there are no other valid paths.
For me in particular, the biggest challenge is not defaulting
inside myself to her way as the "right way" and becoming opposed to myself in the process. That's how Fe-aux works in me, it creates a struggle between her Fi and my organic perception - basically setting up a situation in which I am at odds with myself. In other words, while my organic perception (Ni or Ni-Se) feels like home to me as a way to perceive and move, Fe-aux orients me to her Fi as if it is by initial default legitimate.
So my struggle is the internal clash it raises in
me. I internalize her Fi view even though it doesn't make sense to me, and I double stream it and my Ni/Ni-Se perception inside myself, part of me seeing myself as "other" and "wrong by default" in that initial process. Which then later on raises a need for to Ti-tert to come in with guns blazing to try to correct for the damage that initial move causes in me.)
I suspect that Te-aux doesn't work that way. But does any of that seem familiar to you at all?
It's just different "operating systems", if you will. Both Linux and Windows can be used to accomplish exactly the same tasks, but a Linux user is always going to feel uncomfortable with Windows, and vice versa. And I don't choose the "operating systems" analogy lightly: these are distinct cognitive differences between people.
I love this metaphor! Thank you.
I'm trying to figure out how it would apply to my experience described just above with Fe-aux and double streaming. Maybe it's like because of Fe-aux, I keep trying to run programs made for from her system on my own operating system?
(tangent that is possibly but maybe not moving outside of the metaphor: in the actual world of tech, I want want WANT to try Linux. Have been wanting this for years, but haven't have the time. I only learned Windows because it's so prevalent and it was just there a lot more than Linux)
Once you note that the other way of thinking is valid, THEN you can develop an attitude of learning from it. INTPs always see things that I don't, and I see things they don't, and in a team, we're nigh unstoppable as long as we leverage each other's understanding. You just need to stay away from the tendency to insinuate that there is something wro-o-o-ong (oh so very wrong!) with the other person's reasoning/values. It's just unfamiliar, not wrong.
It's actually been quite a revelation to us both that this "weird stuff" about me - manifestation of my cognitive processes - is not specific only to me. I think at some unfortunately significant levels, we both tended to assume that her ways of processing things are more valid/legitimate/representative of humanity as a whole than mine, when our different processes clashed (a situation due to the dynamic I described above with Fe-aux in me).
And it's not something you can gain much familiarity, because you'd have to stop thinking your normal paths in order to think in the other person's paths.
Yes! And in our case I think we are finally
finally getting this! We simply can't think in each other's paths - and that is
completely okay. We don't have to do that in order to be together and love each other and move well together in life.
This is an excellent point (well, a couple excellent points crammed together).
This thread very much has the feel of explaining to INFJs how they should want to be different in a heavy-handed way.
I see this as well.
IMO Fe-aux can cause real problems in situations like this. I suspect it's because at some level we (INFJs) can feel obligated to consider it quite deeply (that we should want to be different) ... even when we're also setting and articulating boundaries. In fact, in this context, INFJs setting and articulating boundaries is itself positioned as wrong and controlling behavior.
This thread is like having that clerk follow you out of the store, follow you everywhere you go for the rest of the day and maybe even have them continue talking at you while you’re trying to fall asleep.
*nods* and given what I wrote above, I would add the clerk's talking at you includes admonishment that you walking away is due to something wrong with you that needs to change.
I also want to say this: This dynamic generally does NOT happen in my interactions with my INFP partner. In fact, she tends to want to drop things well before I do (Fe-aux + Ti-tert, in my case, most likely, though that's just a guess).
Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right?
In my case, this applies to various aspects of my cognitive processes and their manifestation in interaction with my partner.
For me, getting centered and clear enough to stand firm in: "This is how I am, its difference from you doesn't mean there's something wrong with how I am, it's just difference, and we're going to need to learn to work with it" is really crucial since I've been so pulled by Fe-aux to initially try to adapt to her perspective and ways.
I'm very fortunate that since we found this conceptual language (INFP/INFJ and cognitive processes), it has come increasingly clear to us both my processing "weirdness" isn't specific to me alone, but is actually related to this cognitive stack that exists in other human beings as well. With that step, my INFP tends to be quite supportive
when I can get centered enough to stand my ground and say "This is how I am" while reminding myself internally that "how I am" is not a deviation from how I should be given her cognitive processes as an invisible norm.
I've found that my INFP partner seems to naturally recognize difference as difference rather than "this is superior/this is inferior" due to her commitment to each individual being as well and centered as possible. We just needed a way to get at that, and for us the MBTI/cognitive process concepts have been the gift that keeps on giving.
And I really feel that some amount of our tension has been caused by
me being in a confused and disoriented space due to my own internal struggles with Fe-aux. I've found that the clearer I am, the more I can stand up for myself and not allow Fe-aux to create that nasty internal struggle in me, the better able we are to move well together (that's just my side of it, my necessary work in the process. She has her work/centering process too. But I'm focusing on what I am able to do to contribute to us being able to move well together).
In our case, it's like some of what she reacts negatively to is when I am internally confused and disoriented, like that bothers her at some deep level. Which is truly awesome, actually. In my view, some of the dynamics in this this thread seems to be almost the
opposite of that in some ways -
with some participants not liking it when INFJs move toward centeredness, with INFJ centeredness marked as wrong and in need of change, and related underlying a push for us to remain in and even deepen a state in which we would be disoriented and somewhat disconnected from our actual perception.
And I want to repeat in hopes that this does not get lost in this long comment: Given my experience,
That push is not inevitable due simply to INFP/INFJ dynamics. My INFP seems naturally and organically inclined to LIKE IT when I am centered and clear and standing truly well in my own cognitive processes. She can't share that space with me, and we can get into trouble if we try that. But she seems naturally inclined to like it when I interact from a centered and clear space.
The difference between that real life experience with my INFP and the dynamics in this thread on this point are quite striking to me. And not in a good way.
From my vantage point, this thread's push on INFJs to see our normal cognitive process as suspect, wrong, something we "need to" change in order to interact well with INFPs is not only inaccurate to my own experience, but can actually be pretty harmful to INFJs and also to INFJ/INFP connections that based on authentic mutual desire for our own and each others' wellness.
eta: bolded this part due to a suggestion I got in a PM to do so:
On a conceptual level and from the INFJ side of things: if my experience is in any way relevant to other INFJs, one key to this may begin in sustained attention to how Fe actually operates as an AUX function in INFJs, rather than taking Fe-dom type descriptions/understanding and simply looking at it as Fi versus Fe. Fe is not our dominant and that is actually really really crucial information.