Entropic
New member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2012
- Messages
- 1,200
- MBTI Type
- INTJ
- Enneagram
- 8w9
- Instinctual Variant
- sx/so
To preface this, this is meant as part a starting point of discussion of what it means to over-identify with the mind, but also as a way to inform some of the deeper mechanics of the 5 pathology and some of the more neurotic thought patterns pathological detachment can manifest itself as, thought patterns that I think are rarely if ever dicsussed or mentioned, let alone fully understood by those who try to identify whether they are 5s or not. So what does it mean to over-identify with the mind? I think this subject is often sadly misunderstood and unexplored because it does not mean that you're intellectual, it does not mean that you're knowledgeable, it does not mean that you like to understand the world, no, what it truly and genuinely means is that you in fact reject the existence of your physical body in favor of the mind.
what does it mean to reject one's physical body?
The result, the consequences of such thinking is neglect of physical needs and a pathological detachment of the body itself. I think it is common for 5s to experience their body as weak and frail, that it requires needs and demands that seem ultimately arbitrary and useless and are in fact more of an obstacle than a help in order to attain omniscience. This theme of rejecting the body is quite common in fiction with strong 5 themes underpinning the story. For example in The Matrix, the mind is clearly depicted as more powerful as the body and is more capable than the body. The body is described as weak and useless and is nowhere near as capable as the mind. This is also reinforced in that all action scenes are actually set in the virtual reality of The Matrix. The idea of virtual reality as a replacement for reality is probably not an idea uncommon for the 5, that if we can make the virtual reality actual reality, then we are gods because we have absolute control and power of our minds, we do not when it comes to our body. It has demands and needs and none of them which we want anything to do with.
It goes back to avarice and how less is indeed more, that if we can manage on less and getting rid of all that which is seen as too much extra weight, we can manage and sustain ourselves better. This is the projection of the power lust of the 5 who focuses his power on controlling the mind rather than the physical world around him like 8s do. There is therefore an an ultimate frustration with the body - if I can think of all these things with my mind, why can my body do not? In my mind I know how to be a perfect bowler: I understand the theories, the physics, the mechanics, but why can I not in actual reality, make my body act the way my mind tells it to? There's aptly enough, a logical disconnect for the 5 between mind and body.
This rejection of the body is also expressed sexually in that 5s are rarely if ever going to be sexually active or pursue sexual activities on their own because sexual activity is the most strongly associated with the lust of the 8. Why otherwise call it lust? Sex is the ultimate act of lust itself. Instead the 5 focuses that lust inward towards attaining omniscience - there's a lust for knowledge and understanding and this aspect is also poorly understood when it comes to the 5. The strive to understand and attain omnscience is driven by lust itself. Also, it is not an understatement to say that whenever a 5 does reach some kind of insight, this is akin to experiencing a mental orgasm. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a 5 who came up with the word "mindfuck".
So how is all this a bad thing? It's bad because it leads to physical neglect. It's bad, because the way the 5 relates to and understands the body more as a useless appendage that is only in the way of achieving omniscience, we are expressnig signs of being stuck in our pathology and we are not growing as individuals. It's bad because it's an ultimate sign of trying to reject the soul child, the things we actually desire to express.
Rejecting the body for a 5 is not just about not being interested in sex. That would be too much of an easy conclusion for anyone to arrive at. No, it's the entire concept of the body itself that is rejected. It's the ultimate belief that I do not need a body, my mind is sufficient. This is why the 5 is said to over-identify with the mind more so than the other head types which has to do with how the inner child of the 5 is an id type whose primary drives and desires focus on physical stimulation and control. I wouldn't be surprised that many 5s also experience some kind of uncomfort in relation to their body in some way, perhaps related to sex or sexual activities or just a general uncomfort with their body in general. I'm personally very neurotic in this area to the point where I once thought of myself as asexual and I still consciously and quite actively deny myself of my sexuality. Not to say that other types cannot do this, but I think it is ultimately the 5 who will be very prone at doing this because sex is just another physical need of the body and who the hell needs sex when you can think of all these amazing things in your mind or even better quite ironically, think of having that amazing sex in your mind you know your body will never be able to express? Then it's better to not think of or desire or crave sex at all.
This uncomfort goes back to the fear of engulfment, the need to retreat into the ivory tower our mind ultimately represents where we again, are gods. For a 5, learning to accept the body and its needs and demands and listen to the body and start acting out on the body's desires is thus an important aspect towards integration.
what does it mean to reject one's physical body?
The result, the consequences of such thinking is neglect of physical needs and a pathological detachment of the body itself. I think it is common for 5s to experience their body as weak and frail, that it requires needs and demands that seem ultimately arbitrary and useless and are in fact more of an obstacle than a help in order to attain omniscience. This theme of rejecting the body is quite common in fiction with strong 5 themes underpinning the story. For example in The Matrix, the mind is clearly depicted as more powerful as the body and is more capable than the body. The body is described as weak and useless and is nowhere near as capable as the mind. This is also reinforced in that all action scenes are actually set in the virtual reality of The Matrix. The idea of virtual reality as a replacement for reality is probably not an idea uncommon for the 5, that if we can make the virtual reality actual reality, then we are gods because we have absolute control and power of our minds, we do not when it comes to our body. It has demands and needs and none of them which we want anything to do with.
It goes back to avarice and how less is indeed more, that if we can manage on less and getting rid of all that which is seen as too much extra weight, we can manage and sustain ourselves better. This is the projection of the power lust of the 5 who focuses his power on controlling the mind rather than the physical world around him like 8s do. There is therefore an an ultimate frustration with the body - if I can think of all these things with my mind, why can my body do not? In my mind I know how to be a perfect bowler: I understand the theories, the physics, the mechanics, but why can I not in actual reality, make my body act the way my mind tells it to? There's aptly enough, a logical disconnect for the 5 between mind and body.
This rejection of the body is also expressed sexually in that 5s are rarely if ever going to be sexually active or pursue sexual activities on their own because sexual activity is the most strongly associated with the lust of the 8. Why otherwise call it lust? Sex is the ultimate act of lust itself. Instead the 5 focuses that lust inward towards attaining omniscience - there's a lust for knowledge and understanding and this aspect is also poorly understood when it comes to the 5. The strive to understand and attain omnscience is driven by lust itself. Also, it is not an understatement to say that whenever a 5 does reach some kind of insight, this is akin to experiencing a mental orgasm. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a 5 who came up with the word "mindfuck".
So how is all this a bad thing? It's bad because it leads to physical neglect. It's bad, because the way the 5 relates to and understands the body more as a useless appendage that is only in the way of achieving omniscience, we are expressnig signs of being stuck in our pathology and we are not growing as individuals. It's bad because it's an ultimate sign of trying to reject the soul child, the things we actually desire to express.
Rejecting the body for a 5 is not just about not being interested in sex. That would be too much of an easy conclusion for anyone to arrive at. No, it's the entire concept of the body itself that is rejected. It's the ultimate belief that I do not need a body, my mind is sufficient. This is why the 5 is said to over-identify with the mind more so than the other head types which has to do with how the inner child of the 5 is an id type whose primary drives and desires focus on physical stimulation and control. I wouldn't be surprised that many 5s also experience some kind of uncomfort in relation to their body in some way, perhaps related to sex or sexual activities or just a general uncomfort with their body in general. I'm personally very neurotic in this area to the point where I once thought of myself as asexual and I still consciously and quite actively deny myself of my sexuality. Not to say that other types cannot do this, but I think it is ultimately the 5 who will be very prone at doing this because sex is just another physical need of the body and who the hell needs sex when you can think of all these amazing things in your mind or even better quite ironically, think of having that amazing sex in your mind you know your body will never be able to express? Then it's better to not think of or desire or crave sex at all.
This uncomfort goes back to the fear of engulfment, the need to retreat into the ivory tower our mind ultimately represents where we again, are gods. For a 5, learning to accept the body and its needs and demands and listen to the body and start acting out on the body's desires is thus an important aspect towards integration.