onemoretime
Dreaming the life
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
- Messages
- 4,455
- MBTI Type
- 3h50
I see why Z loves you.
I know, right?
I see why Z loves you.
I really do see the similarity between INFJ and INTJ. My ex-wife is ESFJ, and we had so much in common. I was surprised at how fundamentally different we were, underneath it all. Only by pushing things into the realm of disagreement did the rather stark differences become apparent at all. It was our differing motivations that caused us to drift apart: the apparent similarities had no binding power.
Aphrodite said:You know, I think just like with other things, it's the action. It's the expression. But the main variable in that is on a consistent basis. Because people won't continue the innate action or behavior unless it's what's comfortable for them. They will revert eventually into the comfortable way of being. So, it's what someone does over time, consistently, I think. Not just what one wants to be or wants to do.
I think this might be the core of the disagreement.
You see, for example, INTJs behaving with what you regard as "Fe" mannerisms. Therefore, that is Fe.
I do not deny that I "act Fe" at times. I was raised to be very polite, to be courteous.
But there is a key difference between those whose types have Fe as their strongest "F" function and those who have Fi as their strongest "F" function, and it's how they process the feelings in the first place. The processing can both lead to similar conclusions and different conclusions. It is by reviewing the different conclusions that one can begin to separate out the actions from the motivations, and discover that the underlying motivations are different.
But, that said, the exact same action might be equally comfortable between an INTJ and an INFJ, or INTJ and ESFJ (like uumlau says), but the *reasons* that they're doing it are utterly different.
What action would be comfortable between an INFJ and an INTJ?
I understand. I respect that you know what functions you use. If you say you use Fi, I'll try and believe you, although I don't feel it as much as Fe. And I know Fi when I feel it; so asking me to believe an entp, for example, uses Fe more than Fi is quite a stretch for me.
An INTJ and an INFJ could be equally comfortable performing the same action. I didn't have a specific in mind....I think it could apply to pretty much anything, across all personality types.
All types can and do perform the same actions at times, just for highly different reasons/motivations.
I very much feel the Fe from an ENTP, especially when an argument heats up. The same things that irk the strong Fi-users from ENTPs also irk me for very similar reasons. Similarly, I can feel the Fi from INTJs and INFPs alike, the main difference being that the INTJ has the iron Te control, and the INFP hides with extra shyness. ENFPs seem to outwardly show exactly what I feel inside. Even as they can be insanely random with their NeFi, I can follow that randomness effortlessly.
From xNFJs I get this sense of dignity that engenders nothing but respect and admiration from me. But I've noticed that I can occasionally mistake INFJ for INTJ and vice versa, for the very reasons that you cite. I attribute it, however, to "Te looks a lot like Fe until you dig deeper" (motivations), and not "Fe" is the real INTJ tertiary.
I think we'll get to the bottom of this, eventually. It'll just take time and patience.
Well, I see something different. I will continue to study and watch.
Really? Interesting. I notice myself understanding, almost effortlessly, those who have Ti, and those who are FiTe are ones that I don't immediately relate to.
I gather you see yourself utilizing Te moreso than Ti, given your theory? I relate quite a lot to descriptions of Ti, but also to elements of Te. But, I've also always thought everyone has the ability to utilize all 8 functions.
Re. behaviors over the longterm - I do agree with you, you can't maintain a certain behavior that is uncomfortable for you over the longterm. But I still think we're speaking of slightly different things. I'm referring to a given action - any little thing. Say, for example, rock-climbing. I rock-climb, and approach rock-climbing, in a vastly different manner than an ESFP dude does. Same action: An outsider observing both of us wouldn't know anything about inner reasons or how we approach all of it from a safety perspective. Etc.
Over times these Fe and Fi actions add up to give a feel for a person's overall function attitude. If we go by our inner feelings, and not the outer feelings, it only gives us part of the picture; we might not want to go rock climbing but if we are driven to do it, that is Fe, and that is the stronger feeling. People do what they want and need to do in the end, unless they are being coerced or controlled for some reason, and then they will still fight it.
To all the non-discriminatory white, male, NTs: Thank you for your highly esteemed behavior to non white male NTs. Unfortunately, discriminatory NT behavior is a real phenomenon on Type C, and I suspect irl as well. I'm just not usually privy to it because I'm not in white male NT circles much.
To Poki: The only thing I'm saying that's really different is that normal functioning involves oppositely orienting the tertiary to the dominant. This would be normal daily positive encounters with others and the world. I'm not sure I like the 'loop' terminology, but okay, I've been stuck in a loop before. A loop for me exists when no answer can be found and you keep going round and round. A loop might be the beginning of a neurosis, such that so long as the loop keeps going round, you're sort-of stagnated in a negative space, instead of the normal positive one. Finally, as the dominant demands solutions the unconscious functions cannot provide, it exerts pressure on the tertiary especially (because it is weaker than the auxiliary, although the auxiliary could be coerced as well, as we see sometimes in extreme neurosis or psychosis) and bends it into a subjective (or objective for extraverts) orientation, ending the 'loop' and beginning the extreme orientation which usually manifests in some outcome, be it additional insight or some newly garnered knowledge, although this will come at a cost to the subject's psyche if this state is sustained.
So, in effect, you have the exteme behavior which can only be obtained by extreme methods, such as you would have with an extreme orientation. Yet extreme behavior can elicit exciting results as well, tho at a cost to the host. It's the whole ying/yang thing if you will. Suppress part of your psyche, and it will repress and manifest somewhere else. The more you suppress, the stronger the underlying tempation will be.
I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...
I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...
So does this mean that normal functioning for an INTP is to orient S outward and to Se? Can you explain how this presents itself?
Well, you probably do. I use Fi a lot now. Maybe even more than Fe at this point. That's why this stuff isn't as much fun once you start using more functions well.
Hint: To Poki. White male NTs tend to be discriminatory to anyone not white, male, and NT.
You are trolling again. Why don't you say something substantive or nothing at all? hmm?
The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...
What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.
I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.
Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.
I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.
If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.
The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...
What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.
I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.
Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.
I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.
If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.
'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...
Great post, especially bolded parts!
'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...
Hahahahaha!