Stanton Moore
morose bourgeoisie
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2009
- Messages
- 3,900
- MBTI Type
- INFP
Salomé, is that you
lol, no. But I miss her.
Salomé, is that you
Very well said.NTs often dismiss emotions, but not because they don't think emotions are important (especially their own) but because they don't think emotions are relevant. For example, I don't think people's emotions are pertinent in this thread. The idea of emotions is germane since that is a topic of discussion. But not people's emotions themselves, since this is not a discussion about values but about truth--ie, is this argument true? Not is this argument good or bad?
And it is because NTs are usually concerned with truth that they don't take emotions into consideration. Not because they don't think emotions and values are important.
I did notice that, in both the NT and NF case, it's the T that's supposed to be valued, and the F that's supposed to be less important. So it's entirely possible the phenomenon (to the extent that it exists) is due to a societal pro-T bias.I wonder if it's less about NFs thinking they're stronger with their weakness (for those who have noticed this about themselves), and more about having to defend having any strength at all in their 'weakness'. Seems as if they have to always be reminding someone that they are very capable of being rational in discussions like these, so maybe there is a connection.
Either way, though, I haven't come across NFs who downplay their strengths (that I can remember right now). More often they have to explain that their strengths ARE strengths at the same time they have to explain that their 'weakness' can still be very strong.
I just have so much love to give. I cannot help myself.... So much love!
Really, other people will make plenty of thoughtful, well-constructed arguments which will be ignored by the OP. Look at any history of an NTP argument against NFs and the NTPs enjoy cherry-picking and shifting their entire argument (a quick overview will show them side-stepping the original argument into whatever mode they can take to "win"; you have to constantly redirect to the original argument). This is usually ENTPs, as they operate more with Ne, but at least they have some wit.
I only participate when it entertains me though. I know some people think I should be all bland and "mature" to get ideas across, but then I will just refer you to read a book. I'm not going to regurgitate books for the lazy, and I'm not interested in dry debate where the other person has demonstrated they won't respect you anyway.
Plus, I have no shame in being more expressive, and if people dismiss an argument because of style, then that is their own error in reasoning. As I noted above, dryness (and even calmness) doesn't make you morally superior nor more or less correct.
While I do totally agree with you here. The one point where I diverge is that style does need to be taken into consideration (sometimes quite heavily). It can and does easily cause the other individual to shift how receptive they are to what you're trying to say and can ultimately make things counter-productive. If someone can't explain things in a way that isn't mean, overtly harsh, overly sarcastic, and a multitude of other distasteful manners I will write them off and ignore them. To me, not trying to shift is a sign of lacking in respect which I don't take well to. If they can't talk in a civil manner, they shouldn't be worth my time.
do you mean solely in debates?
For the most part (as that is the context of what she was referring to).
Out side of that though, if someone isn't willing or able to be serious, friendly, or neutral for the majority of the time I will very often not take them seriously. People that are consistently sarcastic and trollish I usually end up hating and not give them attention or the time of day. I have one friend who is a slight exception to this because I have been around him for a long time and if he goes on too long I'll snap him out of it and he'll tone it back.
It was a joke.I did consider the argument, so by your reasoning doesn't that show I don't regard NFs as "illogical"?
There are so many ways of talking about emotional elements that it can easily be done without even realising it. It's not always as literal as "I feel this" or "you feel that". The point is emotions and Feeling-based impressions govern far more of the world around us than NTs believe they do. They don't admit to being bad with emotions, because they often fail to recognise their existence and/or degree of influence in any one situation. Many NTs appear to believe that if they just ignore emotional elements then they will no longer be a factor. This is helpful for the process of Thinking, but it will fail to give them a complete picture of the world around them (and of themselves).How often do you even hear NTs talking about emotions? Maybe this is why you don't hear it. I readily admit I'm better at handling logic than emotions.
I get that, but emotional elements are part of this thread, and many other things in life, whether you like it or not. The issue is that, as objective as you claim to be, you are making subjective (emotional) choices about which information you deem significant or not in order to fulfil your pre-established beliefs. It's like the blind men and the elephant analogy. We all do this; it is human nature. But as [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] so brilliantly pointed out, NTs can be even more at risk for these sort of fallacies, because of the blind hubris of 'objectivity'. NFs accept the subjective nature of the world, and consequently their inclination to question the objective 'reality' can potentially put them in a far better position to assess the 'truth'.NTs often dismiss emotions, but not because they don't think emotions are important (especially their own) but because they don't think emotions are relevant. For example, I don't think people's emotions are pertinent in this thread. The idea of emotions is germane since that is a topic of discussion. But not people's emotions themselves, since this is not a discussion about values but about truth--ie, is this argument true? Not is this argument good or bad?
Please. You honestly mean to say to me that you don't think NT style thinking more important/significant/valuable than NF style thinking?No, what NTs mean when they say they are better at NT-type thinking is they are better at logic. At assessing the truth of propositions.
OA has been attempting it. I will defer to her.If you don't explain it, then how can I be bothered to understand it?
I said "more than capable", not "more capable".Do you have evidence NFs are "more capable of rational thought"?
Show me where I claimed the ENFP did? You falsely attributed my statement to the wrong motivating thought. Another case where a little subjective, logical assessment would have helped you to comprehend the truth.Show me where that ENFP says NFs can't think rationally?
Oh no! You got me, oh wise-one!On the contrary, he said NFs can think rationally, only not as well as NTs can. And since you admit you can't use Ti-Te as well as NTs, you apparently agree. So why your post? One word: Strawman.
What in the actual fuck
Hmm. I wasn't awarein the actual fuck if we're talking about how people are conceived, the man puts his penis into a woman's vagina they thrust and stuff then the dude ejaculates the woman's egg gets fertilized 9 or so months later a baby pops out.
Sort of like this?I just have so much love to give. I cannot help myself.... So much love!
The claim was "Secondly, it's kinda bullshit, because NTs rarely admit they are bad at feelings."There are so many ways of talking about emotional elements that it can easily be done without even realising it. It's not always as literal as "I feel this" or "you feel that". The point is emotions and Feeling-based impressions govern far more of the world around us than NTs believe they do. They don't admit to being bad with emotions, because they often fail to recognise their existence and/or degree of influence in any one situation.
Ignoring emotional elements can cause them to no longer be a factor. Even if we can't ignore emotional elements, separating them out and considering them separately from everything else is often reasonable, and can simplify analyzing the rest. Even when emotional elements are inextricably intertwined in something, at least some parts of it can be separated out and considered apart from emotional considerations.Many NTs appear to believe that if they just ignore emotional elements then they will no longer be a factor.
Pursuing objectivity is neither blind nor arrogant. It's a very good idea. Even if we can't reach the goal of perfect objectivity, getting a reasonably close approximation is well worth the effort.the blind hubris of 'objectivity'
Is there a difference? If so, what is it?NTs are better at hard, impersonal logic - I have not issue with them saying so - but no one type is better at assessing Truth.
Right here, though, is an interesting point. First of all the Feeling function isn't just about emotions, but subjective information and experience. The assumption that this is separate from truth is an interesting one because all of these things occur as part of reality. The question isn't whether or not subjective data is truth, but what are the best kinds of reasoning tools to process that data and in what way is it truth.Very well said.NTs often dismiss emotions, but not because they don't think emotions are important (especially their own) but because they don't think emotions are relevant. For example, I don't think people's emotions are pertinent in this thread. The idea of emotions is germane since that is a topic of discussion. But not people's emotions themselves, since this is not a discussion about values but about truth--ie, is this argument true? Not is this argument good or bad?
Swimming at sunset- or is it sunrise?- in tropical green seawater on top of luminescent jellyfish and, every once in a while, being catapulted by nematocyst-resistant dolphins through and above the water so I get a clear view. But, it's only when I come down down down into the deep ocean that I join my family & community in the school of life.