For me its not a rule, but a current understanding based on the pieces. I have always seen Fi as an understanding. To bring this to logic, even if I make a decision it is layered with all these other situations that could logically change things, but I stick with my current understanding and allow these other layers to just kinda float around as possibilities so its not really a hard set rule. This to me is my openness or fuzziness in regards to Ti. Each layer or possibility has hard set logic but I can switch and move between these layers. Its nothing hard set as a rule and more data can sway it if it fits into the puzzle at anytime. I try to control this data so its not so one sided though. This is how I keep my openness.
Aw, but my Ni and Se never argue with each other internally, what gives?
Aw, but my Ni and Se never argue with each other internally, what gives?
yeah I always thought of Ti/Fi as being very similiar oddly.
Fi mirrors pain or happiness
Ti mirrors logical paths/ideas???
Both form internal rule sets.
Ti is well suited for pure logic-rulesets requiring precision-and poorly suited to resolve complex human problems??
Fi likely is not ideal for pure logic but is good at very complex human problems-very fuzzy complex rules sets.
Both are learned via trial and error? So i have to feel my way through the Fi problem, to actually build Fi rules? A Ti user would need to think through logic problems??? And once built it can be hard to change them as I would need to re-feel a similiar situation and feel a different result while you would need to think through new logical rules???
(Does any of this sound right my favorite Ti dom?) I am blathering today.
I am only every truly lucidly emotional when I am in the presence of other people usually.
You know-it sort of looks that way I guess-that I am nice. But I dont establish deep emo connections typically so the hurts I inflict are typically unintentional or not of deep significance. I think if I attached more deeply, I would have hurt more people in life.
Wow, that is so wild. I am only truly emotional when I am by myself. Otherwise, I tend to hide it. I mean, sometimes, it creeps out, but it's very awkward, not the socially acceptable way.
I find this fascinating...
But as others say about Fi, it's a judging function- it's something in your gut that says 'this is right' or 'this is wrong'. It can be very powerful. It may seem irrational, like- 'I can't explain why this is wrong to me, it just is'- but deep down, it's intensely rational, as in- 'Life must be valued. If life is not valued, the world will turn to ruin, for rampant disrespect/disregard for life in all its forms is unsustainable. Therefore, I will not step on this insect, I will not buy fur, I will smile at this panhandler no one else will look at.'
Fi is about universal values vs the values of an individual society. It's just rooted in internal self-worth. That's why some see it as selfish. But healthy Fi is about as unselfish as you can get, because you are always considering the cause and effect of your thoughts and actions and whether they are 'true'. It just looks different than Fe. Think St. Francis of Assisi (Fi) vs uh, I don't know... some Fe user saint...
Sorry to color this with my Catholic education, but The Fi-user would stand up against the errors of the church, where the church has strayed from the universal values, while the Fe-user would be a 'defender of the faith', I would think... Neither is more or less noble, it just prioritizes different things.
In my opinion, anyway...
Why do you need to develop Fi, anyway? You've got Fe... let it do its work, use it with your Ni to understand yourself and what matters to you.
I can choose to not give a damn about others opinions-but never their feelings-unless I am doing something that may hurt in the short term but will be better for them in the long term. To hurt with no reason has never been okay-even for my puny Fi.
The love yourself though-this is weird as I have a great deal of self respect and self esteem. But there is something real odd about NeFiTe. The Fi has to judge the action for me in this case-the intentional hurting of another. Normally almost all other stuff gets judged with Te. But Fi is so puny, so ill refined, that it cant give a well resolved answer. It just says "BAD", no matter what the justification. Then it pulls out the Te machine of punishment and accountability. Like this:
Fi: mirror perceived hurt of another-BAD
Te: Well okay if you say so, even though it looks like logically this was really not the end of the world, and you can probably forgive yourself for this one. Was it really that big of a deal?
Fi: mirror perceived hurt of another-EEEEVVVVIIILLLL
Te: Well since you were evil, you should be chained in a basement and never released to interact with other humans you horrible monster. (while rolling eyes...)
this felt different-like Fi kinda of recrunched the math because the feelings didnt make any sense-the actual feelings were in disagreement. I dunno... I'll keep on feeling.
(This could take forever.)
EDIT: The others are always loved more than me. I put others before myself. It seems to be an Fi rule of some sort.
EDIT: The others are always loved more than me. I put others before myself. It seems to be an Fi rule of some sort.
I knock the church not on what it preaches, but the effect it creates in the way it preaches. Its very essence of how it preaches goes against what it preaches, but the only reason I have nothing against it is because of the values it preaches. To see what I mean by the methods it uses look at cults that use church like practices. This Fi you speak of is what keeps the churches values appropriate to its mass and is like a self check of powers.
I understand that others are always loved before you, though while I think that's an Fi rule, it's your Fi-rule, not a general one. Fi is your attitude and choices and priorities: the explicit priorities, etc., are different from one person to the next.
I don't think that's attributable to function type. I do that too, as do many others, I'm sure.
sorry my bad AA, I meant it is one of my specific Fi rules-not by any means a general Fi thing at all. I find Fe to be amazingly beautiful in how it loves, so no limitations implied at all-just muddled wording. (Hey I smell Ti round these parts.......Hmmmmmm)
so can I ask you guys a question about Fi?
I can do the emotional mirroring innately-very strongly actually with animals or people, accutely painfully so.
I place myself in other people's shoes all the time.
But in the past I did not typically use Fi to make decisions-I use Te to logically find the correct path.
What is this mirroring people speak of? I hear ENFPs mention this more.
Only on a few occasions has my empathy been engaged unwillingly. I don't usually find empathizing to be painful..."mesmerized" might be a better word for me. There's a feeling of removal in order to get the "healing" done (someone has to stay calm), but there's also a recognition of & identification with the emotion.
When I hear Fi people speak of this "mirroring", it makes me think they have not developed boundaries, or I am too detached at times. I can be totally oblivious to other people's emotions if I feel like it. Only occasionally do I feel a sting of sadness at things I cannot help (or which are not directly related to my life), but it's easy for me to keep my original mood intact and move on with my day.
Do you think this is because you are actually really skilled at using Fi-so you have learned to be very selective about who you choose to engage with emotionally? (In contrast my Fi is primitive at best) This came up in the empathy thread and several other places. Ne just funnels-and potentially even amplifies-what pain I "perceive" others to be in. It can cause me a lot of stress. (Just me though, not sure how other enfps feel this)
EDIT-Just to clarify empathy is such a massive broad concept so in no way claiming it for Fi. I actually saw it mentioned as an aspect of Fe in the MBTI book.
I don't know....that's why I brought it up .
I think functions will work differently in different positions though (ie. auxiliary vs. dominant). It could be an I/E factor - I am just naturally more in-tune with my own thoughts than anything external.
In some ways, I think my ability to detach rather easily can be negative. I may lose perspective on my own emotion and become self-absorbed in my own problems. They loom large with nothing to compare them to.
When I have moments of empathizing, I do feel rather calm because I am not focused on me. I think there is a balancing and boundaries needed when it comes to how much you empathize & how much you detach. Too much one way or the other is not good.
emphasis mine.At high levels of discrimination, the Conscience has the bewitching ability to accurately assess other people's emotional states by reading his own internal reactions. The person then tends to provide benevolent attention and care for the person who really needs it.
I don't know how you feel about this, but I read in my Hartzler functions book, that Fi as an advanced function can feel the emotions of others by running them through their own emotional data banks. I'll quote:
At high levels of discrimination, the Conscience has the bewitching ability to accurately assess other people's emotional states by reading his own internal reactions. The person then tends to provide benevolent attention and care for the person who really needs it.
emphasis mine.
What do you think? Do you think this is true?
I notice the quote uses the word "assess". To me, that's accurate. I identify the emotion, but I may not feel that emotion in the moment. There is a recognition of something I know or have known, and I can use that to extrapolate what the other person may be feeling. I say "extrapolate" because INFPs often report being able to accurately grasp that which they have not directly experienced.
I have helped people clarify how they feel by doing this also. I just offer suggestions and the person will verify that I hit the nail on the head. They sometimes get excited when this happens because they needed that clarification much more than any advice.
If I were to become emotional with them, then I'd lose that clarity though. When that happens (because it does sometimes), then I may egg on their emotion instead of helping them deal with it, which usually is not positive.