I think you can describe your personal view of this, but I'm not sure you should yet claim you have a handle on the NT view on it for the rest of us.
Hence the term "musings."
I totally disagree, because I don't think you've perceived the correct nuance here.
How we usually do this is to tell the NF that they're stupid and that we're smart, because we "understand the situation better" than they do and their values are inferior to our logic in terms of "truly understanding" it. Your recent argument and the others I typically see involve around trying to show the NF why the NT logic on how to frame the argument is actually the "best" frame, and their approach is irrelevant/inferior.
So the comparison is this:
NFs often insist they have a handle on what values are operating behind the NT's behavior.
NTs often insist that they have a handle on what logic is operating behind the NF's behavior.
The problem is being trapped in one's own frame of reference and having an marked inability to step into the other person's shoes and view it from their frame, insisting instead that one's frame of reference is "most valid" across the board.
True. I think that's how most people approach most situations; however, I also think that most people tend to hold each other to unrealistically high standards in their own areas of strength, i.e., NTs expecting people to maintain their level of rational consistency all the time, etc.
So here's another question, when you claim you're not "really upset."
How do you know that the NF is "really upset?"
Maybe they're really only as upset as you are, they just show it differently.
Umm, I don't? I can't recall ever having told an NF that I know how s/he feels better than s/he does. Did I actually say that? In fact, I sent an apology letter to berber and amargith telling them that my tone came off more harshly than I intended, which I should work on--and hey look, this also happened without unrequested mod intervention, and now the issue is settled.
And after reflecting on it I realized this and then started this thread in an attempt to better understand the situation/ask for other perspectives on it so I can try to avoid making this mistake in the future.
This thread's point is absolutely not NF bashing...hence my invitation to anyone with relevant opinions to share.
I can identify what you've said, when I've dealt with F people and things have soured. Yes, often I just feel "annoyed" even if I sound snippy -- it's basically anger but with detachment, which reduces it to "annoyance" -- and the focus on feelings and telling me what I might or might not be feeling is what pulls me in so that I can't detach myself and then I start taking it personally.
Uh huh, that's pretty much my point with the whole "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing. I don't hate NFs on principle; this is just one thing they do more often than other types that bugs me.
If you cared, I could explain lots of things that bug me about other types, too, and in fact I do. I'm sure I could pull lots of posts explaining strength vs. weakness analysis on virtually every type and type comparison--so I think your assertion that I "target NFs" with type criticisms more than others is kind of unfounded.
But nevermind that; I'm clearly a bitter NF-hater. (Despite living with an INFP roomie and working closely with NFs in almost every creative situation in my life...right.)
Do you know what surprises me? That NTs with supposedly strong Ti would fail to understand why their behavior is counterproductive in getting an F (or whomever else) to think in the same fashion they do. Been there, tried that, doesn't work... nor necessarily should it. These conversations are far more productive when both sides listen and flex and empathize (via both a feeling capacity AND an intellectual capacity).
You're right. This was my mistake, and such understanding is the point of this here little thread...not NF bashing. If I was out to bash NFs, I don't think I'd have sent them apology letters, admitted my own mistake and made an effort to better understand this situation for the future...
Do you?
I don't think young NTs really understand yet, due to lack of social experience, how some of their comments that they view as impersonal, are heavily laden with social, emotional, and personal implication even if they're unaware of it (or aware but dismissive), and that this can actually impact both T and F people alike. Face it, a lot of people read things personally, not detached. If everyone is of "equal value," then detachment is no better than attachment, so again it's going to have to flex if it plans to integrate well into community.
Yeah, you're also right about this, and it's certainly something I need to work on. It's hard for me to come at things from a personal perspective, but my point here is really that sometimes I
do become upset in situations where it's unnecessary, simply because I respond emotionally to perceived threats to my freedom (like someone telling me how I do or don't feel.)
As I said, the point of this thread was learning/improving communication. If I was just in "GRR I AM A SUPER RATIONAL T" denial mode, I doubt very seriously that I would apologize to NFs for my recent tone and openly discuss how my emotions came into play in this situation.
And by the way, I don't mean to attack your credibility as a moderator. Here's another good example of the point you just made--I didn't really think about the personal implications of that statement before I said it, so, my mistake again.
I believe I also made an effort to say that operating outside of mod rules is "quite uncharacteristic" of you, which is true...I think it's cool that you took the trouble to discuss this in such detail, and frankly I have a lot of respect for your ability to handle forum issues so impersonally in most cases.
I can't really tell if you're upset or not from the tone of this post, but suffice it to say I didn't intend any offense and I apologize for any personal implications of it.
This whole exchange has actually been really helpful for me already--unfortunately the only way I know how to learn is through trial and error. I know you don't have time to go through a point-by-point analysis of the thread in question, but since I'm naturally weak at reading the emotional implications of my words, anything you can do to point out when I've made such mistakes is always appreciated.
Hee. I went through that exact phase (said/wrote exactly the same things) in my early/mid-20's... until it was beaten out of me.
Even my best friend, an INTP, told me later that I was insufferable. The more experience you get with people who are not like you, the more you'll start to see the world from new angles and realize the judgments one holds are just from one POV.
moving on... I'll say it did take me a long time to understand the ENTP variation of devil's advocate. I play devil's advocate but my point is usually clear and is hooked into my big frame of reference focused on "balance." You seem to take up positions that you don't necessarily hold, even if it unbalances things, because the goal isn't to create a large-scale philosophical framework that hinges together; Ne is in charge, and so the goal more is to explore whatever makes sense to explore in that moment. I kept looking for a large framework to hold it all together and would be confused when I couldn't find one, but that's because there doesn't tend to be.
Yeah, ENTPs are ridiculous sometimes. Just like everybody else, we expect everyone to readily grasp our bizarre Ne trains of thought even when there's no real reason anyone should because they don't actually make sense! I definitely take up positions that I don't really hold because
I can't really understand something until I've tried to approach it from every perspective.
Being in my early 20s myself, I am sure I'm going through a very similar process to what you went through--
but would you really understand it now if you hadn't gone through it, made your own mistakes and learned the hard way?
It's all a function of completing the big picture--if I haven't gotten into the mindset of my opponent to determine how s/he thinks, I can't really figure out the best way to respond to him. (When I wanted to learn how to play against loose players in poker, for instance, I consciously loosened my own play to an absurd degree and lost a lot of money, all in the name of pushing it until I found the line so that I could understand where my own play lies in the broader context.)
I became irritated when you moved posts in the thread because I was in the middle of my learning process on this topic (though I know it really doesn't look that way on the surface) and you interrupted it by doing what I perceived as misreading the situation and its emotional implications.
Of course, a big part of that is my OWN deficiency in recognizing the emotional implications of my own words, and I see that now...so thanks again for that part. Haha. Unfortunately ENTPs tend to figure things out by pushing and pushing and pushing the line until it snaps, and then we're left to repair the pieces--truly I am sorry for this; it's just the only way I know how to learn.