proteanmix
Plumage and Moult
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2007
- Messages
- 5,514
- Enneagram
- 1w2
SFJ and NFJ: REALLY LONG POST
Dealing with ESFJs doesn't require some special understanding. In fact, I'd say the FeSi combo typically works to your advantage if you don't use it stereotypically and myopically.
Being Fe-doms, ESFJ behavior will vary depending on what group they're with. I think people often get "traditional" confused with larger cultural traditions and not group specific traditions, typical difference between macro and micro systems. It's about picking up the particular strain of Si the ESFJ is using and recognizing it's going to be pretty stable in output. I find that people very rarely take into account the vast amount of variability between SJs. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few ESxJs in people's lives that they don't even recognize as being ESJ because they don't act straight enough to type.
If you want to find the ESFJs more constant personality I'd suggest paying attention to how they behave with friends, not even necessarily family because then the duty factor comes into play a bit more. A "tradition" for a ESFJ is that all their friends meet for brunch on Sunday morning or getting stinking drunk once a month.
I've also noticed a distinct difference between older, married ESFJs with children and younger, single, ESFJs. I consider younger ESFJs to be kind of like Thoroughly Modern Millies and older ones taking on that more the typical ESFJ persona. I know more younger ones than older ones but even the older ones, I tend to see a great love for their family and professionally they tend to really be the glue that holds my department together. My Division is basically run by NFPs and if it wasn't for the ESFJs I'm pretty sure things would be even worse than they are now.
I also think that ESFJs are the most socially pragmatic of the FJs; I see a depth and acknowledgment of social realities that I know NFJs see but don't "accept" which leads to greater NFJ frustration and anger as compared to their SFJ counterparts. This perceptiveness is often unacknowledged and unappreciated in SFJs. I think SFJs have a greater mastery of the concept of "Don't sweat the small stuff" than NFJs. When I talk to some of my SFJ coworkers about policies and practices that absolutely outrage me and my INFJ coworker, they're pretty mellow about it. Recently, they changed the Internet and Personal Email policy at work and the two of us were fuming at the injustice and a couple of them simply said: "You're here to work. Check your email from your phone." And then we went on and on about how employees should have free access to personal emails, what if this and what if that. In the end, it really was about us being here to work.
I've always thought Sade is an ISFJ. Her song "King of Sorrow" sounds so very SFJ to me, especially the line "I have so much to do...I have to carry on." I think this is generally why (and I know I sound stereotypical) I do see more SFJ in the hands-on medical profession tending to the physical care of others. So yeah in a specific sense that comes out as "Clean your room!" but in a general sense they often become beasts of burden and feel it themselves and resent it. People do often take advantage of their steadfastness and they strike out.
Since my mother has been sick I've seen so many of her fellow churchgoers just volunteer to do stuff for us. During the worst part of it earlier this year, they'd take shifts sitting in the hospital with my mother while we had to go to work in order to earn paychecks. Many SFJs have come to our house to keep my mother company and lift her spirits, sing with her, and hell even cleaned the house. That's not something people should thumb their noses at and disdain as being a lesser ability.
I think SFJs are more neglectful of themselves than NFJs and they have a greater appreciation for someone paying attention to them and relieving the burden from their shoulders. Practically that works out as them not having to ask you to do things, but you looking and noticing what things need to be done and doing it for them. Of course, unhealthier versions of any type will find something to complain about.
And believe it or not, IME ESFJs actually enjoy doing things that many people on this forum would find distasteful. One of my ESFJ coworkers came to me and asked me if I needed help organizing my bookshelf. I didn't feel he was insinuating 'clean that monstrosity!' but that he genuinely saw that is was and is out of control and I hadn't stopped to do it yet and that he could really be of help. I think this is a problem most people have in understanding ESFJs: they don't know how to interpret when they are genuinely reaching out to be of practical help. They take it as "are you saying I'm a slob?!?!" "are you saying I can't do this on my own?!?!" Just stop. Take it at the level it's being said. I know once I figured out an ESFJ did that to everyone, it stopped bothering me. They weren't singling me out for any special disapproval or censure.
And once again, in a general sense, I appreciate someone who looks around them sees what needs to be done and makes action to do it and they're Fes which I like how easy it is to talk to them and how they actually take the effort to make people feel comfortable and relax. That's nothing to sneeze at when you're at a work baby shower and everyone else is nervously and awkwardly pushing cake around on their plates because they have nothing to say. Fine, talk about Ace of Cakes anything to get all these nervous people talking!
Dealing with ESFJs doesn't require some special understanding. In fact, I'd say the FeSi combo typically works to your advantage if you don't use it stereotypically and myopically.
Being Fe-doms, ESFJ behavior will vary depending on what group they're with. I think people often get "traditional" confused with larger cultural traditions and not group specific traditions, typical difference between macro and micro systems. It's about picking up the particular strain of Si the ESFJ is using and recognizing it's going to be pretty stable in output. I find that people very rarely take into account the vast amount of variability between SJs. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few ESxJs in people's lives that they don't even recognize as being ESJ because they don't act straight enough to type.
If you want to find the ESFJs more constant personality I'd suggest paying attention to how they behave with friends, not even necessarily family because then the duty factor comes into play a bit more. A "tradition" for a ESFJ is that all their friends meet for brunch on Sunday morning or getting stinking drunk once a month.
I've also noticed a distinct difference between older, married ESFJs with children and younger, single, ESFJs. I consider younger ESFJs to be kind of like Thoroughly Modern Millies and older ones taking on that more the typical ESFJ persona. I know more younger ones than older ones but even the older ones, I tend to see a great love for their family and professionally they tend to really be the glue that holds my department together. My Division is basically run by NFPs and if it wasn't for the ESFJs I'm pretty sure things would be even worse than they are now.
I also think that ESFJs are the most socially pragmatic of the FJs; I see a depth and acknowledgment of social realities that I know NFJs see but don't "accept" which leads to greater NFJ frustration and anger as compared to their SFJ counterparts. This perceptiveness is often unacknowledged and unappreciated in SFJs. I think SFJs have a greater mastery of the concept of "Don't sweat the small stuff" than NFJs. When I talk to some of my SFJ coworkers about policies and practices that absolutely outrage me and my INFJ coworker, they're pretty mellow about it. Recently, they changed the Internet and Personal Email policy at work and the two of us were fuming at the injustice and a couple of them simply said: "You're here to work. Check your email from your phone." And then we went on and on about how employees should have free access to personal emails, what if this and what if that. In the end, it really was about us being here to work.
I've always thought Sade is an ISFJ. Her song "King of Sorrow" sounds so very SFJ to me, especially the line "I have so much to do...I have to carry on." I think this is generally why (and I know I sound stereotypical) I do see more SFJ in the hands-on medical profession tending to the physical care of others. So yeah in a specific sense that comes out as "Clean your room!" but in a general sense they often become beasts of burden and feel it themselves and resent it. People do often take advantage of their steadfastness and they strike out.
Since my mother has been sick I've seen so many of her fellow churchgoers just volunteer to do stuff for us. During the worst part of it earlier this year, they'd take shifts sitting in the hospital with my mother while we had to go to work in order to earn paychecks. Many SFJs have come to our house to keep my mother company and lift her spirits, sing with her, and hell even cleaned the house. That's not something people should thumb their noses at and disdain as being a lesser ability.
I think SFJs are more neglectful of themselves than NFJs and they have a greater appreciation for someone paying attention to them and relieving the burden from their shoulders. Practically that works out as them not having to ask you to do things, but you looking and noticing what things need to be done and doing it for them. Of course, unhealthier versions of any type will find something to complain about.
And believe it or not, IME ESFJs actually enjoy doing things that many people on this forum would find distasteful. One of my ESFJ coworkers came to me and asked me if I needed help organizing my bookshelf. I didn't feel he was insinuating 'clean that monstrosity!' but that he genuinely saw that is was and is out of control and I hadn't stopped to do it yet and that he could really be of help. I think this is a problem most people have in understanding ESFJs: they don't know how to interpret when they are genuinely reaching out to be of practical help. They take it as "are you saying I'm a slob?!?!" "are you saying I can't do this on my own?!?!" Just stop. Take it at the level it's being said. I know once I figured out an ESFJ did that to everyone, it stopped bothering me. They weren't singling me out for any special disapproval or censure.
And once again, in a general sense, I appreciate someone who looks around them sees what needs to be done and makes action to do it and they're Fes which I like how easy it is to talk to them and how they actually take the effort to make people feel comfortable and relax. That's nothing to sneeze at when you're at a work baby shower and everyone else is nervously and awkwardly pushing cake around on their plates because they have nothing to say. Fine, talk about Ace of Cakes anything to get all these nervous people talking!