Entropie, the curiosity and thread are much appreciated but you're right, we don't like to muck about..we like to get to the core of this kind of shit as we don't enjoy misunderstandings, especially not when it comes to our own behavior. So..what is it exactly you'd like to know? Why Te is important to us? Why we find ourselves tlaking about it so much? Why it shows up in us in the most unusual ways? What exactly are you curious about? Remember, we tend to be eager to please,especially if someone takes the effort, a genuine effort to want to understand us (not probe us and use our words against us, mind you), so chances are, if you ask a direct and honest question, you'll get a straight forward answer
Well since this is my thread, I can make the rules
. I admit it was a dumb idea to ask introverted Feelers for a philosophical discussion about themselves. I should have seen it coming that it ends with me hanging in line with only the answering machine. The concrete question is basically captivated perfectly in the last post quote in this reply.
well okay...i think enfps sort of use their te to put into action or clarify the information they have brought in with ne and deemed worthy with fi...i think you guys use your fe to charm people to stimulate your ti and go nuts with it with ne...or something...that was on fly and most likely pointless...let me try another one...enfps send out ne probes and nibble at it with fi and spit it out if it tastes yuck or use their te to demand to know what it is so that they may decide if they give a shit haha
i've completely lost track of what we were talking about...let me think.
let's see...you want to understand what makes us so different...well fi/ti haha we want to know you at the core. we care mostly about how you feel about something....ehh...nevermind with this schpiel...i'm not saying anything that hasn't been said better before by someone else on this site.
I am not having the feeling so far that you would really want to know me at the core, otherwise you’d be more open to my way of dealing with things, which you should be able to do having a broad Ne perspective. So far I get the impression that if I don’t play by your rules, you wont talk to me and that of course provokes a goatish reaction from me. ENTPs do want to know people at the very core themselves, but when they notice this is only one-sided, they’ll turn their back on people.
I am sorry that I am being unfair here, since you already wrote the fifth post or so and are honestly trieing to answer the zero-existent question, but I am very sensitive as well to having things my way and we’ll need a compromise.
You of all people I counted on !! Shame on you, I am gonna tell the city administration they shall raise the taxes for teachers
.
to try to answer your actual wondering... i think it depends a lot on the individuals. but on the whole i think that the major difference is that ENFPs are more motivated by ideas than values/ethics. it's very similar to the ENTP/INTP difference, really (i have both ENTPs & INTPs in the family, so i'm saying this from firsthand observation). in general i think ENxPs care less than INxPs that things are ideal because by sacrificing some perfection we can gain a broader scope of ideas and more leeway to experiment. an ENFP will cut Fi corners for the sake of curiosity, whereas an INFP will reign Ne in for the sake of maintaining their values. so as a result ENFPs are more dynamic, more exploratory, less considerate, less idealistic.
This is my experience as well. Tho I have been trieing in the last years to really put more emphasis on that Ti, but it’s so tough to do that
.
but that's because hosting is completely a Fe thing - mobilization of people and maintenance of interaction. Fe can totally take care of that. T isn't really needed at all.
how can i explain... well, the way i conceptualize the Judging functions is as "prioritizing". all Judging functions place things in hierarchies of what is most important. the T functions rank things by logical sequence, while the F functions rank things by personal significance. then the I/E attitudes designate where the ranking is applied to. Te ranks external things by logical sequence, and Fe ranks external things by personal sequence. they're really quite similar, i think. an ENFJ friend of mine is an excellent delegator and group leader, for example. they both are good at manipulating external things, including tasks, objects, and people. the question is not what they manipulate, but how. Te can direct people very well by organizing them in logical groupings, and Fe can do the same by organizing them for interpersonally significant groupings.
Yes that is what I had in mind. People run around and put the Te label on things too easily. If it has to do with organisation it must be Te. But that’s not the case, the actual reality is much more finetuned than that. Up until the point when its getting so fine that Newtonian mbti rules don’t apply no more and you get to play in the real league of understanding people in their most inner core.
so then we have their partners, Ti (ranks internal things by logic) and Fi (ranks internal things by personal significance) - with the caveat that "internal" really means "internal" to any system, not just internal to oneself. so an ENFP with Fi can get a sense of the internal wellbeing (or poor health) of a group, but we don't have any means of organizing that group without a Je function, so that's where Te comes in. essentially no one can organize their external environment without a Je function. which is why you and i are both Ps, and Pe-doms - we don't tend to actively organize our external environment, we tend to "flow" with it instead, and seek internal structure (Ti/Fi). but we still both need Je if we are to deal with situations like delegation, where we need to manipulate external things. and that's why ESFJs can easily host without summoning T at all - because Fe is already structuring their external environment for them. and ENTPs can rely on their internal sense of logic to organize things - it will just be based on an ideal inner system, instead of piecing together an external system like Te. but since Ti works logically, it can organize. whereas an ENFP trying to organize things via Fi... wow, i don't even know what would happen. i think nothing would happen. we probably just wouldn't care.
maybe that's what i've been getting at. Fi doesn't always care about the things that Ti gives you a sense of logical ordering for, and that's why we need T. but an ESFJ doesn't need T because they already have a means of organizing the external. and an INFP doesn't need it because INFP's main goal isn't to get things from the external world, it's to organize the inner world, and so they summon Si for support instead of an external function.
You phrased that beautifully, those are the Fi discussions I am used to thru my girlfriend.
I don’t want to comment in any way on this, cause I think its perfect and it is very rare that I feel like that, still extraordinarily with Fi and Ti users this does happen for me. I even learnt a thing, so thank you
.
oh wow, that took me a long time to get here. i hope you haven't gotten tired of reading this rambling. my final conclusion is this:
so ENFPs seek, first and foremost, engagement with the external environment of concepts and ideas. Fi gives us a sense of what we care about, and how things "should" be, but it does not really help us actively reorganize our external environment, which we need to do sometimes to make engaging with the external environment easier for us. so that's why Te is so important. i was wrong... it's important both because it's T and because it's Je. it could be Fe, but then we would have a very hard time detaching from situations and we would get hurt even more easily than we already do. it could be Ti, but then we'd have conflict between Ti and Fi. so Te serves the double functions of (a) protecting us, because it is T and allows us to detach, and (b) arming us with a way to manipulate the environment, because it is Je and prioritizes the external.
No I never get tired. In fact I have been learning for my exam all night, slept 3 hours and then wrote the exam. Now I am at work for another 8 hours and my stomach feels like its about to vomit itself from all the coffee, but the batteries are still holding !!
I relate to what you say. I am still doubting that Te is the only way to protect yourself or to manipulate the environment, you didn’t say that but I’ll pick up on that later.
mm, perhaps so. i don't really see the world as disarray much, but i am admittedly a more organized variety of ENFP. i think the problem is that if we are looking at a picture like this:
Ne + Fi thought is more like:
while Ne + Ti is more like:
and you are seeing the lack of logical organization. but it is not so uncomfortable, when you're inside our skin.
Ya that’s about right, tho Ne + Ti is too concrete in the picture. Having T influenced by N we see the same abstract big picture like you do, it’s just composed differently. I for example don’t see images in my head, I cant remember places or shit, I heavily relate to words and connect them in a cloud matrix in my head and form a big picture. It’s basically defined by what you say how I feel towards you that explains the seemingly higher sensitivity of me as well. While most people would accuse me of wanting people to speak according to a societal norm, for me its just the primary way to perceive the world. And by reading like 5 various words in a post, I immediantly have a clear abstract impression of a person that usually lasts forever, if I don’t fight it. It’s a huge undertaking for me to jump over my own Ti and to admit that first impression abstract images are no real science or a real thing that you ever could trust. Then again my knowledge of the human nature has seldom been wrong.
The best way to visualize would be a world of symbols, numbers and forms:
yeah. i don't think there is, really... i think it's just that we don't always care about logical things very much. like i was saying before about Fi... Fi doesn't always really care. and because Ne comes first, the drive to explore is most important... so we tend to run ahead exploring and making sure we are intrapersonally aware, and logic sort of lingers in the background. like, oh hey, maybe i should clean up, this clutter is kind of getting in the way. but if we were like you were suggesting... if we "stabilized"... aka were able to organize logically internally... well, we would be ENTPs, wouldn't we
are you asking us to become ENTPs?
This isn’t what I suggested. What I was suggesting you grabbed in your last post. More on that any minute now.
yeah! well i think your questions are interesting.
i have to agree with what lady x and LL have asked though... what is it exactly that you are asking? i think we are looking at 2 different pictures again... lol... you're asking something about the diagram picture and we're looking at the painting and not seeing...
Nono, you just grabbed perfectly what I was asking for and answered it. Don’t ruin it by teaming up with the masses
.
*epiphany
maybe you guys caught this and i'm just slow
BUT
so entropie.
essentially you're saying:
since ENFPs talk about their Te so much and its usefulness in structuring, it stands to reason that structure is important to us. but if it is important to us, then why don't we structure initially, instead of having to come back later and structure our messes.
i think because other things are
more important to us up until the point at which structuring becomes necessary to live the way we want to live.
i think you will find in general that ENFPs really don't care much about delegation or organization - or logic in general - beyond usefulness in streamlining things in our lives such that we have more time to concentrate on what is important to us.
also sometimes it feels like Te is what makes others consider me a "grown up" when otherwise i really just wouldn't mind being a 5 year old running around chasing butterflies. so obviously it should be bragged about.
Thats basically it. I didnt even think that you should structure things before they hurt you: I was thinking since I have read so often in the forum that when a personal problem arises enfp refer to their Te, if there wasn’t another way to cope with things.
The majority of introverted dominant or aux people just ignore what they think they cant change, because they don’t have the power to behave otherwise. I had the attitude that when my competence in a situation would making false steps, I could charm my way out of it always. But some day it didn’t work. The same I thought about enfps: when they encounter a situation that is emotionally so overwhelming, they could react with Te and soft-pedal the situation by deeming it not worthy and “its just an emotional problem, be a man†– thing. I witness that often in my girlfriend and since I am the girl in the relationship it’s a good pairing that we have. The thing is instead of talking about her problems, she puts them down with Te. While I would never admit I have no competence, I’d just charm my way out of things.
I think to be a bit closer to the final truth of the universe and all this a thing both types should learn about themselves.
That was the quintessence of what I wanted to say.