Actually, I didn't think to categorize it as logical/illogical. I know what burnout feels like, I've felt it and I pull back. When I recouperate I go back out again. If I feel driven to help a period of exhaustion is just that, a period, and I'm right back out there again when I feel refreshed.
That's good. What I meant is logical/illogical was the following. "If you care about one, you should care about all." Not the burnout.
I agree, anyone can experience burnout. For me, extroverting the Fi, which is the impetus to help, is really draining, it doesn't recharge me. Just have to be careful.
BTW, I don't want to make this about who logs in the most community service hours, just to clarify. Whatever your chosen outlet is, then fine.
I thought you implicated above that Fi users didn't get their hands dirty. Wanted to counter that, not trying to boast, just laying it out plain.
I mentioned this several times already: what does it mean to get in the dirt with someone? The ISFP is deficient, she needs help. No one questions that. Who's going to get in the weeds with her to help her through? The only person thus far who has done this is the ISTP. Not Orobas.
Well, O said she lives 200 miles away; in all fairness, it seems only now is she pulled enough into the story to start contemplating how she could (or should) help. Don't you think? Or at least offer that as the benefit of the doubt?
Orobas is outraged and Fi-offended but she has not done anything that would give her deeper insight into the situation.
She made this post not to stand in judgement of Fe, but to understand better why her ISTP MIL was venting and saying the kind of things she said, which really seem to contradict her actions. Am I missing something there?
When you get in the mud, what do you expect to happen when you start seeing the situation as a soldier on the ground not as a fly on the wall? Your perspective changes, things get unclear, the situation gets more complex. You see that the reason why the person may not have keep the dr's appt was because she was out late the night before and didn't wake up in time (this is hypothetical NOT that Orobas said this). You may see that the person takes the money they're given to care for the children and spends it on alcohol, clothes, and other nonsense. You see that the person's attention isn't going towards the kids because they're too busy trying to keep their romantic life in tact and the expense of the kids.
I totally get this and agree - for example, I used to volunteer with teen moms, one of whom had a drug-dealer boyfriend who she would try to break off with, but then he would feed her needs, and not just for her habit, for a new TV, for a hookup ... things are messy, messy indeed. It takes a lot to get involved in these situations, and there are often no easy answers or solutions. I think that's part of the problem, when you first start volunteering, it seems like if you just offer all the information and be a good role model, it should be enough. But there's this special key inside of people, this inner place of motivation, that only that person controls. And most people give all that power away, for all the broken reasons people do. Difficult.
Look at what Orobas said the ISTP complained about:
- She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them,
- The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy.
- They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean.
- She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink.
- The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.
Are those valid reasons to be upset and frustrated?
Oh yes, they absolutely are reasons to be upset. But O was asking ...
why would she say those things? Is she exaggerating? I think your answer was to vent and blow off steam. I think what O was saying was that it feels more judgey of the person? Not of the situation. Do you think that the ISTP has a good opinion of the ISFP mom?
Once you start seeing the details of the situation, who's the underdog? Does the person who appeared to be the underdog still look that way?
I think it's important to be very careful here ... people sometimes are helping because they accept the edicts of their church for example, to help others. They are still in the power position because they have made the choice to get involved. They want the person to change according to their preconceived notions of what they need in order to improve their lives. It can be very subjective, and the person helping is still more in the position to step away or withhold. Yes, of course, there are master manipulators among us ... and good people get taken advantage of. The ISTP here could be a victim of trying to uphold a morality that they don't feel in their heart, but that still does not make them the underdog here.
I might not have had control in all of my volunteer matches, couldn't help encourage all of these girls to make changes that I thought would be beneficial for them and their babies, but I made that choice to get involved, which meant I had the power to step away.
We all believe the person is doing the best they can and trying to do their best. But at the same time you understand how they contribute to their own miserable situation. Even though they are trying to do better it can frustrate you as the person watching this and trying to help as much as they want and allow you to and still see them struggling. Why is it the person struggling can make the mistakes, but the person offering the help has to walk the straight and narrow? I'm beginning to believe people need to hit rock bottom in situations like this so they can start climbing out themselves. Unfortunately them hitting rock bottom means the kids will also hit rock bottom.
Totally agree. Very difficult.
I address that discrepancy, that is what unsettles me as a Fe user. That is inconsistent, that is where actions, behaviors, words, and feelings misalign. To me that is the travesty of the situation. You say you love your kids, you hug them and kiss them, but you won't even change their dirty diapers? How is that consistent? How is that caring and loving?
This is wonderful. Really. You've connected dots that not everyone connects. I know it seems ridiculous ... unbelievable! Yet, people struggle with real world responsibilities, real world obligations, ones that push them to their limits of maturity in their ability to place the needs of others in front of their own. Yet, there can still be love. Not
caring perhaps, in the way we think of it, but there is still love there ... so what needs to happen is to tap into that love and use it to help mature the mom in a way that educates yet does not judge her. Without good modeling in the first place, already so much against her, but it is possible. Sometimes it's like planting seeds ... you really don't see the fruit of them until much farther in the season. Again, it comes to that inner key, that place where people make change not because they are obligated to, but because they are transformed to.
I don't think this happened either from what has been explained, but is this a Fe failure or a communication failure? I think Orangey already addressed this...the couple may not have worked out all the minutiae of what living in the church meant. As I stated earlier, no one needs to explain to me that if I'm living on the good grace of another I need to clean up after myself, I need to empty trash and wash the dishes I dirty. Unless I'm paying rent, I give up a few freedoms in the name of having a roof over my head based on the generosity of someone else.
Total communication failure. Not Fe. Te. Sometimes it's hard to swallow one's pride ... or feel that you are thought less of by these supposedly caring people who speak love with their tongues, yet none is to be felt from their hearts. You would use these acts of service to repay the debt, but not everyone transacts in the same way.
This more than likely frustrated the ISTP because to her (and me) it seems obvious to do these things. On top of that, the ISFP didn't regularly feed, bathe or clean the children and then seemed to be puzzled why they are sickly. This is neglect, plain and simple.
Well, I again think it's careful to remember the ISTP is venting, which I might add I totally get her need for, but perhaps she could be exaggerating to drum up sympathy for her end of the equation. I would want to see with my own eyes before I judged the level of neglect.
And once again, who's to say that the ISTP (who is her MIL and priobably felt comfortable enough with O to say what she said) didn't explain this to the ISFP and her family? You'd be surprised when you think you're clearly communicating with someone and they have not a clue of what you said. I would be insulted if someone told me, wipe the toilet after you're done, clean your dishes from the sink, don't leave stinky diapers in the trash if I were staying with them. Those are things I know to do! Is that really Fe?
It means you were raised to a standard to understand these rules. It's not Fe per se. Not everyone knows this stuff though, or wants to feel beholden to other people's standards, or judged because they lack them.