adding a little disclaimer, this goes for my last post too -- what i say is generally all a little mix of theorizing, defending, hypothesizing, etc... a lot of it's akin to brainstorming. as ENxPs are apt to do, i probably seem to be arguing for something harder than i actually believe it, because in a lot of ways typing this stuff out is a way for me to explain it to myself... it's not meant to be 100% my finalized opinions on ENFPs, or NFPs, or Fi/Fe, or any of that. it's just thinking, talking... some of it playing devil's advocate... etc.
I have been trying to read this thread to learn more but this is the second time reading it I just exit and find myself angry or frustrated from the back and forth here or something. Harumph!
Heather- Leaving thread and walking down hall at work with small storm cloud over her head now. :yim_phbbbbt:
sorry
i think a lot of negative emotions get stirred up during this thread... lots of misunderstanding one another. it helps when i get upset if i remember that the whole reason we are on this website and talking in the first place is to help understand ourselves and one another, so it's for a good overall purpose... even if we get a little mired in the difficulties while working through things...
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Z Buck McFate said:
The thing is- with Ti, there’s really no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT. I especially don’t think it’s possible to come up with immutable facts where the human mind is concerned. I think Ti likes things to stay relatively ‘open’. It wants to see how far the terms match the underlying phenomenom, but it’s also careful about over doing it and throwing things in the pot (into the definiton) that don’t belong there. So as far as ‘final product’ is concerned: it’s all relative. What Ti’ers come up with is more of a ‘finished product’, they are more careful about the definitions they put forth- but there is no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT, there’s only a neverending game of getting it more and more accurate (the external reality will never be able to reflect the ideal accuracy that Ti craves). [edit:] I'm guessing it's the same with Fi- that value judgments or criticisms put forth aren't FINAL per se, but it generally feels like you've put more deliberation and care into them before putting them 'out there', yes?
yes, for sure.
It kind of seems like the primary diff here might be that NFPs/Fi’ers don’t pay as much attention to refining external ‘shared’ definitions, and focus on refining understanding of the solitary underlying phenomenon; the work of thoroughly refining ‘shared’ definitions seems maybe superflous (Te wants quick ‘shared’ definitions). Ti (at least, as presented in these threads) seems focused on finding the most accurate and fair definition of the underlying phenomenon possible, to be able to find universals in the collective of solitary underlying phenomenons and carefully sculpt a ‘shared’ definition from this collective; delving into one’s own solitary underlying phenomenon too long (without comparing it others) loses its meaning after a while. I think a lot of the communication conflict in these threads results from that difference. Does that sound like a fair assessment?
yeah, that does.
and i think maybe even in application, i feel like we should hold off on judgments about people until we really know what they are like. because personal identity is so important, there is nothing more important to a person than their self, it's the only thing they really have... so we should be careful to be so quick to make judgments about people. but with T stuff, it's not such a big deal to me, because if the logic works, then it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't, and we'll change our ideas around. we're never going to have the full truth so it's not such a big deal if the Ti stuff isn't always quite right. i guess maybe it seems the same way to Fe, that it's okay to put opinions about people out there, because if it's true, it's true, and if it's not, it's not. i don't know if i'm getting this right, but i could understand things that way.
Expressed in more personal terms: it makes my head spin sometimes to listen to someone go on and on and on about emo problems in a circular way. At the same time, I *love love love* when someone goes on and on and on about theories (that I’m interested in)- in a circular way, without a clear ‘goal’, just for the exploration of ideas. Ironically, I love going back and forth with people on theories about feelings- noticing what causes them in people, why certain things are catalysts, whether there are feelings that seem universal or not- but talking about one person’s feelings (without being able to back up and apply it theoretically to a broader scope- simply talking about the one person’s feelings) absolutely wears me out after a little while. It feels stifling to me. It’s holding me in a place where my vocabulary is very limited. I’m sure there are fascinating nuances to explore there- of this I absolutely trust, because I’m the same way with Ti- but I don’t perceive them. They only become fascinating nuances to me once they can directly translate into some universal theoretical template to feed Ti/Fe. Or something.
huh, that's interesting. yeah i kind of feel the opposite way. what do you mean about stifling/ no vocabulary? like talking about different kinds of sadness/anger, or something different?
For the record, I may have overstated how exhausting simply listening to emo venting is before- if I care about someone, and it’s how they handle things, then I’ll gladly to put up with it to make someone feel better. It’s when I start to feel like they are taking it for granted that I start feeling exhausted by it. If they aren’t using me as a sounding board to ultimately improve their situation- but rather are using me as a sympathetic ear, enabling them to continue in a bad situation- then I begin to lose patience. It’s still taxing for me- but there are some friends I have with whom I’ve learned not to take their initial venting with as much weight as my own. Once I realize they aren’t putting forth ‘finished product’, and that I don’t have to give what they’re saying much weight- then I can turn off my ‘hard core empathizer’ and pay less attention. Really, in the end, what taxes me is when they keep coming back and complaining about the same things without being willing to take action to make the problem better. I’ll do it to help someone, to achieve practical results, but I never do it out of idle fascination- unless, like I said, I’m seeing something in it that I can apply to some larger universal scope.
well, and like i mentioned before, it's the same thing with listening to a Fe user... when it feels like they don't appreciate how much energy you are putting into listening to all this negative stuff, without them seeming to be getting anywhere in terms of how they feel, that's hard too. it's interesting to know that you process pretty much the opposite way. thanks
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But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.
sure, but i feel like this kind of falls under the same heading of "how am i supposed to know"... how are you supposed to know i don't mean what i imply when i'm yelling? how do i know you don't mean what you imply when you're venting? i mean hopefully the other person knows, or hopefully you tell them, but i've been on the wrong end of both.
i think what PB said is true --
PeaceBaby said:
I think the line between venting and back-stabbing is kinda grey to Fi users, we aren't as adept maybe at seeing when the line is crossed?
yeah... it seems like the intent doesn't really matter, you're still putting that negative stuff out there. even if the other person knows that, it doesn't make what you're saying any better. they're still hurtful words.
is there a more clear difference to Fe users? how do you react differently... do you take venting in more confidence, do you take it less seriously? if i parallel this with my understanding an argument as a sort of reality-removed time, then i assume it's the same for you listening to someone vent. the same rules don't apply.
Also, if you know that someone doesn't like you (whether they've said it to your face or not), don't you already assume that they probably tell others anyway? If someone has the nerve to blow up in my face and call me "scum," I'm going to assume that they abuse me with equal or greater vitriol behind my back.
huh. no actually... that's interesting. in general i assume that people are going to say much worse things in face-to-face disagreement, because they are heated with anger. i mean, i'm sure that people have said stuff to friends about me being annoying, or some other little complaints, but i would expect them to be much more intense during a fight when they are amped up with stress rather than while talking coolly with others.
Thus if someone is ONLY talking behind my back there's at least a chance that I won't even know about it (in which case why would I ever give a crap?) This piety about "never talking badly behind people's backs regardless of the circumstances in which it happens" therefore really only serves the self.
eh, i don't think you need to refer to it as piety. it's really not any more moralistic as saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting to another person. but no, i really don't think it serves the self only either. the problem i have is not so much that the speaking about others occurs - i mean everyone talks about everyone - but that the person in question doesn't get to know too. i feel like if people are annoyed with me, then i want to know, because i might not realize how i'm coming off and might be very embarrassed to know, and want to change. not that i want to hear from every random person on the street, but when it's someone closer to me, it would be good. it just seems like there's an unfair disconnect otherwise.
Orangey said:
Right? It takes a self-centered person to grant their own opinion so much weight in such matters.
but shouldn't you care enough about the people close to you to confront them when you think that they're doing something really hurtful? i don't understand how on one hand you could say everyone's perspective is valid, but then turn around and say one isn't, if that makes sense. like everyone has the right to their own opinion, but their opinion doesn't matter enough to be worthy of expression. if that's true, then how can you trust yourself to act outwardly at all?
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But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.
i do still feel that calling children dogs carries that connotation. even if the exact wording doesn't mean that, it's just too close in my mind.
both things are shitty though. i don't think either is okay. i just feel like it's easier to understand why someone in the heat and confusion and all the crazy emotions that can occur in argument would say something mean, while when you're talking to someone else in a safe, private conversation, there's really no reason to use wording like that. i guess maybe it can feel to others that you can "let go" while you're around a trusted friend, while you need to be cordial to a person's face, but it still feels weird to me.
When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.
i think i just see it from the opposite light... i don't hold people as accountable when they're yelling at me because confronting someone is hard and confusing and unpleasant and you're all keyed up and scared and defensive and frustrated and everything like that.
i guess i kind of always thought an "argument" was a contained space, where you get all your frustrations out and work through things with someone. that it's kind of removed from reality... that it doesn't "count" in some ways. you get frustrated, say some dumb things, and then you're done. i guess others feel the same way about venting to someone else. in truth they both seem to have their ups and downs. i don't see either perspective as much better than the other.
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A saying that frequently comes to my mind is that I wouldn't say something about you to anyone else that I wouldn't be prepared to say to you directly. I try to live up to that, yet sometimes my feelings do get the better of me in that I will vent some of my frustration out loud to my hubs or a close friend. But I try to couch it in the most neutral way I can, knowing that my words define me as much as my actions. And I know that if I need to vent to someone else, I am somehow ignoring the fact that a direct (yet politically correct) approach is needed in this situation, so I must examine myself and make that happen. It's like, if I need to vent, I've let things get too far. So I need to either act on these emotional signals or let go of them.
yeah, i feel this way too. if i need to vent it's gotten to a point where i can't handle it on my own, and that's not good.
So, I get this. But would I say it? Almost 100% no ... but that doesn't make me any better. It just means I have some differing habits in this area.
well, and i don't know if i'd say that either. it totally depends on the situation. orobas has expressed how her sister has been cut off from the family as a whole - obviously she has done some very frustrating things, and i can only imagine that this wording is in proportion with that frustration.
and i just feel like i should point out, that it's
rare that i yell at someone and say stuff like this. it's usually only with someone i am somewhat close to and feel comfortable speaking frankly to (i know, i know, this only makes it worse in Fe eyes), and over an issue that has been going on for a very long time and that i have unsuccessfully attempted to deal with. it's a point of desperation, not a usual reaction.