Me?

[cascadeco]

Originally Posted by Randomnity

Fair enough - and you do seem more like an INFJ, honestly, though it'd be easier to tell in RL. Just thought I'd point out another random possibility, since you were wondering.

I really do appreciate and respect your input, so thank you. I agree real-life would be easier, and probably more obvious.

And yeah, the parts of myself that are more like ISFP profiles are my love of nature, animals, the outdoors, photography, painting, beauty, and aesthetics. However, none of that really gets to the meat of how an ISFP operates and approaches the world, so what I just listed is pretty superficial and probably stereotyping the ISFP.

As a child my mother described me as 'super sensitive' (which I was). I think I was pretty aware of my surroundings, and never got in trouble in class for daydreaming or anything -- that's the only thing that seems to counter Ni being my dominant function -- at least as it is described for characteristics of children. I was a good student and never got into trouble, basically. ;-) I enjoyed the art projects the most in grade school, and for actual courses, also enjoyed math and science.

[Wolf]

Your test result seems reasonable.

I've thought for a while that most of us with an intuitive function preference are forced by our lives/environments to take up and develop functions more in line with sensors than they are to develop functions more in line with us. We have to play like we're sensors for their benefit because they have a harder time with us than we do with them.

[tovlo]

Well, I've already information dumped on you in a different venue, but I was inspired to comment on a couple things here. I hope you don't mind.

Originally Posted by cascademn

Actually NTP's make a lot more sense to me than many others on this board, even those that are of my own 'type'. I find myself agreeing with and following their thought processes/words pretty easily.

That describes my experience as well...at least on surface. In closer interaction (with an INTP), I found there were many times disconnect when I demonstrated a lack of respect for the confines of logic, instead choosing to follow where my compassion led. To the one I was closely aligned with that illogical compassion was ultimately viewed as unproductive "bleeding heart" even if my compassionate nature was generally valued. I don't know if you've had close enough interaction to know if this is true for you or not, but I'd be interested in your longer term NTP interaction.

I also find what seems to be quite a lack of Fe, based on the cog. function test, pretty interesting. And that makes me wonder.

I agree with the comment in this thread about the natural function ordering being different from skill level or use of the functions which is what the cog. function test seems to measure. If you are INFJ than it is possible that you have an Ni/Fe ordering, but have lesser current use of or awareness of your engagement with Fe. I've seen numerous displays from you of respect for your social environment and engagement with it in order to productively interact and make decisions.

But perhaps it can tie back to my being extremely introverted, and the fact that often-times I don't want to deal with people at ALL. One of the things I most dislike at a job is having to train/monitor people (even if it is 1:1), and anything to do with the phone. And that makes me think I can't possibly have Fe-leanings.

I feel similarly about dealing with people, training/monitoring, and the phone. I see that as about introversion and not Fe. If you are introverted (and everything I've seen of you leads me to believe you are), then your auxillary function has to be one of the extroverted functions no matter how low it may be.

I do see though that if you were dominate Fi, then your high Ne score might seem to make more sense as auxillary than dominate Ni with such a low Fe, but again, I don't think the coginitive functions test measures your natural ordering, but rather your current awareness and estimation of skill with the function. I also tend to think you underestimate your skill with Fe.

The irony is that time and time again, in work reviews, my greatest strength is cited as verbal and written communication skills, adjusting content and style to the specific audience, and people skills. One coworker wrote: "Her relationship building abilities is the foundation she uses to make her successful in everything she does at work." I find that truly ironic because I DO dislike the training/mentoring thing. I'd rather be on my own, or working on a team but not 'expected' to be in an leadership role -- just piping in with my comments.

That sounds very INFJ to me. 1) Strong communication skills, 2) adjusting content and style to the specific audience, 3)relationship building being the foundation of success, 4)preferring to be on your own or a part of team and not in leadership, but finding yourself rising into positions of responsibility due to your work style all the same.

So, interaction styles. I really don't see myself as being a 'Chart-the-course' person. But I guess those who know me in person, and know my communication style 1:1, would be more objective in determining that??

I feel I'm more behind the scenes. My understanding is that types have certain tendencies to be one style of communicator or another, but there is no strict correlation. It just leans you toward one group of types or another.

I once sat and listened to old voice mails I'd left for someone over various periods of time with them, both of us trying to determine if my communication in each one was more informing or directing. There was much of both types of communication, but informing had the edge. I do know that internally I have a drive toward completion, yet that is tempered by a stronger desire not to tell people what to do and for their actions to be the result of their own decision and not a reaction to my direction. So I might be at core a chart-the-course with a tempering of desiring to respect people's autonomy.

Basically I don't think informing/directing is an easy style to identify at all.

It's these sorts of cognitive things -- both Ni and Fi being high -- that makes mbti fall apart to me.

I went through each of your cognitive function test results laying out your functions into the type it would indicate assuming the dominate function would be your highest introverted function (I have little to no doubt you are introverted) and then following that with the highest extraverted function that would be opposite (eg, if your highest introverted function was perception, I'd place the highest extraverted judging function as auxillary). You came up 3 times as INFJ and 2 as INFP.

Basically useless information for making a decision, but thought I'd share it anyway.

I mean, I recognize it's a framework, and everyone supposedly falls into one of 16 general categories or 'approaches', but when someone is battling it out between two introverted functions, and they may hold equal weight, then the utility of attaching yourself to one of 16 just doesn't seem to hold. Ah well.

I had to come to terms with the "best fit" idea in order to finally make peace with my type. I don't look like many other INFJ's. I resonate with many parts of other type's descriptions and often don't resonate with parts of INFJ descriptions. For a long time I rejected the idea I could be INFJ, accepting what tests and others told me I must be. However, in the end I realized my "best fit" was INFJ...even if it wasn't a perfect fit, it was closer than any of the others.

I tend to think of you as INFJ and think there is much to support that. I also recognize that at least by cognitive test results and your own self-assessment you seem to feel INFP might be a good fit. I accepted for a long time I was INFP in part because others were convinced I was, and yet I never felt sure. When I finally accepted I was INFJ it was the first time I felt sure and no amount of questioning of my type since has really shaken that. Perhaps you'll find that place of surety as INFP or as INFJ or something entirely different, but I do hope you find that place where you feel secure in your "best fit" and make peace with the spaces where the label is not a perfect fit, but your expression of self is perfectly you.

[cascadeco]

Originally Posted by tovlo

Well, I've already information dumped on you in a different venue, but I was inspired to comment on a couple things here. I hope you don't mind.

Oh, I don't mind at all! It's very helpful, whatever information/insights you and others might have. I'm always curious how I come across to others, and much of the time I think I'm utterly oblivious to how I come across. And...you know me better than most!!!! :-)

That describes my experience as well...at least on surface. In closer interaction (with an INTP), I found there were many times disconnect when I demonstrated a lack of respect for the confines of logic, instead choosing to follow where my compassion led. To the one I was closely aligned with that illogical compassion was ultimately viewed as unproductive "bleeding heart" even if my compassionate nature was generally valued. I don't know if you've had close enough interaction to know if this is true for you or not, but I'd be interested in your longer term NTP interaction.

I have not had close enough interaction with NTP's, so have not gotten to the point where larger gaps could surface. It's just on a purely intellectual level, on these boards, that I can relate/appreciate/understand, and if I detach myself to analyze a situation from a logical perspective, the NTP's are my voice. :-)

I agree with the comment in this thread about the natural function ordering being different from skill level or use of the functions which is what the cog. function test seems to measure. If you are INFJ than it is possible that you have an Ni/Fe ordering, but have lesser current use of or awareness of your engagement with Fe. I've seen numerous displays from you of respect for your social environment and engagement with it in order to productively interact and make decisions.

Interesting. It's highly possible I'm unaware of my use of Fe. Do you think there are aspects of Fe that I use, and other aspects that I reject?? With regards to the cognitive functions test, I know Fe came low, because I don't feel that I take other peoples' problems on as my own (I tend to maintain a distinction between myself and my needs, and the other person), and I'm not one to go out of my way to socialize or attend to everyone in a group. I'm also a pretty pitiful hostess/caretaker. It's just not something I do. But I see that more as an extroverted role anyway. So there's that.

I feel similarly about dealing with people, training/monitoring, and the phone. I see that as about introversion and not Fe. If you are introverted (and everything I've seen of you leads me to believe you are), then your auxillary function has to be one of the extroverted functions no matter how low it may be.

Yes, I think my introvertedness is the one thing that is absolutely solid about me.

I do see though that if you were dominate Fi, then your high Ne score might seem to make more sense as auxillary than dominate Ni with such a low Fe, but again, I don't think the coginitive functions test measures your natural ordering, but rather your current awareness and estimation of skill with the function. I also tend to think you underestimate your skill with Fe.

Well, my comment above kind of ties to this as well. I probably underestimate several things.

Maybe my confusion with Fe as auxillary (or any of the functions, really) is that I don't really understand it. haha. I don't really know what the hell I'm doing when I'm extroverting stuff out. I'm just talking/sharing/interacting. I don't know. I also don't really know what I'm doing inside my head when I'm thinking or contemplating...in terms of deconstructing my thought processes into cognitive functions, that is. It's hard for me to deconstruct myself, so I guess that's why I end up needing to seek input from others.

That sounds very INFJ to me. 1) Strong communication skills, 2) adjusting content and style to the specific audience, 3)relationship building being the foundation of success, 4)preferring to be on your own or a part of team and not in leadership, but finding yourself rising into positions of responsibility due to your work style all the same.

Yes, I don't know why people look to me or want to put me in leadership roles, when I hate leading, I'm quiet, and I'd rather not bother with any of that. *sigh* ;-)

One and two have always been strengths of mine, I think. However, three is somewhat recent, as from junior high up til the start of college I didn't know how to build relationships. For all intents and purposes I was completely on my own, without any friends to speak of or any group that I was a part of. In a sense, it is learned, possibly mostly through observation.

I feel I'm more behind the scenes. My understanding is that types have certain tendencies to be one style of communicator or another, but there is no strict correlation. It just leans you toward one group of types or another.

I once sat and listened to old voice mails I'd left for someone over various periods of time with them, both of us trying to determine if my communication in each one was more informing or directing. There was much of both types of communication, but informing had the edge. I do know that internally I have a drive toward completion, yet that is tempered by a stronger desire not to tell people what to do and for their actions to be the result of their own decision and not a reaction to my direction. So I might be at core a chart-the-course with a tempering of desiring to respect people's autonomy.

Basically I don't think informing/directing is an easy style to identify at all.

Oh good, I feel better!!! I tend to think I'm more behind-the-scenes as well, as I really don't like telling people what to do, I can't relate to the chart-the-course descriptions as they describe people in the workforce, and I prefer just giving input. I never presume to know what's best for another person -- and am very hesitant to give advice. The advice I do give would be more generic, as what I need/want/would do is totally different from what another person might need/want/do, so I don't feel I'm in any position to direct/tell them what to do.

I went through each of your cognitive function test results laying out your functions into the type it would indicate assuming the dominate function would be your highest introverted function (I have little to no doubt you are introverted) and then following that with the highest extraverted function that would be opposite (eg, if your highest introverted function was perception, I'd place the highest extraverted judging function as auxillary). You came up 3 times as INFJ and 2 as INFP.

Basically useless information for making a decision, but thought I'd share it anyway.

I had to come to terms with the "best fit" idea in order to finally make peace with my type. I don't look like many other INFJ's. I resonate with many parts of other type's descriptions and often don't resonate with parts of INFJ descriptions. For a long time I rejected the idea I could be INFJ, accepting what tests and others told me I must be. However, in the end I realized my "best fit" was INFJ...even if it wasn't a perfect fit, it was closer than any of the others.

For quite some time I thought INFJ was my 'best fit', but as you know I've been questioning it for several weeks. Well, I've never been entirely certain, but recently I've *really* been questioning it.

I tend to think of you as INFJ and think there is much to support that. I also recognize that at least by cognitive test results and your own self-assessment you seem to feel INFP might be a good fit. I accepted for a long time I was INFP in part because others were convinced I was, and yet I never felt sure. When I finally accepted I was INFJ it was the first time I felt sure and no amount of questioning of my type since has really shaken that. Perhaps you'll find that place of surety as INFP or as INFJ or something entirely different, but I do hope you find that place where you feel secure in your "best fit" and make peace with the spaces where the label is not a perfect fit, but your expression of self is perfectly you.

Thanks. I hope so too.

And your final sentence is the best: 'expression of self that is perfectly you.'

I think that is what makes me most uncomfortable about mbti. That I don't feel my full expression of self fits well into anything. BUT I think there's more I could explore, and I'm sure I'm overlooking some obvious things that when I figure it out/reach resolution will make it all clear.

Now time to begin reading The Fall of Hyperion. Logging off for the night!

[htb]

Originally Posted by cascademn

One coworker wrote: "Her relationship building abilities is the foundation she uses to make her successful in everything she does at work." I find that truly ironic because I DO dislike the training/mentoring thing. I'd rather be on my own, or working on a team but not 'expected' to be in an leadership role -- just piping in with my comments.

Pay more attention to observations from eyewitnesses of your daily behavior and less attention to cognitive function theories. What your coworker describes fits INFJs and ISFJs fairly well; while it excludes many types. I imagine that these two kinds of people, if not professionally dedicated to human relations and specific interpersonal abilities, may not welcome constant use of talents -- heightened or not.

[tovlo]

Originally Posted by cascademn

BUT I think there's more I could explore, and I'm sure I'm overlooking some obvious things that when I figure it out/reach resolution will make it all clear.

=Ni

Originally Posted by cascademn

It's hard for me to deconstruct myself, so I guess that's why I end up needing to seek input from others.

=Fe

I see INFJ.

[Eileen]

Originally Posted by Mondo

I'm not surprised to see that your Ni is stronger than your Ne AND your Fi is stronger than your Fe, that indicates strong Introversion.

I believe that the last time I took that test, my Ni > Ne and Fi > Fe as well--and I am really very introverted myself. And, for better or worse, people tend to bring up my name when discussing "obvious INFJs."

[cascadeco]

Originally Posted by htb

Pay more attention to observations from eyewitnesses of your daily behavior and less attention to cognitive function theories. What your coworker describes fits INFJs and ISFJs fairly well; while it excludes many types. I imagine that these two kinds of people, if not professionally dedicated to human relations and specific interpersonal abilities, may not welcome constant use of talents -- heightened or not.

Good point. This is a reason I enjoy getting feedback from others.

tovlo -- so that's Ni huh?? As for what you mentioned as Fe, really? Simply seeking input from others is Fe in nature? Huh.

So....it sounds like most people think I'm INFJ at this point. Externally, aside from my thought that I still probably play around with Ne or other external functions as much as Fe, it does make sense -- at least given how I interact at work and in life in general.

BUT. My only final concern (um, unless I think of another one!!) is one of motivation. And that's where I feel there might be a disconnect between how I choose/want to be as a person and treat others, and my actual thoughts at times (not always - just sometimes). I think I view people very subjectively, and also view the world through a subjective lens of sorts, but I can also be pretty harsh inside, I think. I question whether I've 'become Fe' due to where my philosophical musings took me, and what I concluded from them, I guess. I question whether I reached this point from a thinking perspective, maybe?? But others can be the judge - perhaps the below is a 'typical' angsty rant of an INFJ. It's a bit weird sharing the below since I don't tend to approach things/judge things quite in this light anymore, but I thought it could show a little personality snapshot. One of my big things is accountability for ones choices/actions.

An example of what I wrote about 4 years ago --

**Everyone stop reading now if you don't want to get into a long, long-winded spiel/rant (erm..more long-winded than I write these days?? ) And my apologies to anyone who will be offended by the 2nd paragraph..I'm not being terribly empathetic in it....

---------------------
...However, the problem is that when this attitude arises - this attitude of not accepting any responsibility for ones own piece of the puzzle, and blaming one of the other pieces - society molds itself around this attitude. The lawsuits, the rules, the red tape, the bureaucracy. It's always someone elses fault, and again, people want to take the easy way out; the way that requires the least amount of effort on their part. People don't have any thoughts or opinions of their own, but rather they take on, as their own, the thoughts and opinions of others. Now, it is perfectly fine to agree with others, and to find others who share the same thoughts and feelings as yourself. But it is not perfectly fine to have thoughts and opinions that you have no reason for having, other than the fact that someone else - some authority figure - has them, which means that they are valid and right. If you did not at some point question why you agree with so and so, or why you believe that so and so is right, and independently, out of your own critical thinking, reach the same conclusion, then you have no basis for your thoughts, and they are meaningless. So am I angry at those who do not think and are not independent? Yes. Do I recognize that a good percentage of people are not intelligent enough to understand all of this and they don't even know that they are doing this (not thinking)? Yes. Do I realize that it is a complicated world and many people have many more daily struggles of survival than I? Yes. But these people are often the same ones who do not take any responsibility for their own actions. These are the people who prefer to let someone or something else take care of them. These are the people who expect something/someone outside of themselves to fix things. It is a circle. The people feed off of the books and news stories and tv shows, they come to accept these things and believe in them, and because they accept and believe and don't question, there is a demand for more of it, and it continues on, and our culture becomes more silly, irrational, dependent, and lacking its own judgement. But how did I get here? Well, it's something that can't be resolved - I'm angry at the masses because they don't think, but this anger is not true anger, as I also know (or don't see how) it could never be anything different from this. I think this is humanity, and the majority of people are not going to think, for many possible reasons. And the majority of people do not believe in personal accountability; in other words, they do not recognize their responsibility in any given situation. I am angry at this, and this is inexcusable for all of these people to be like this, but I think this is how it is. - 06/24/2004

The above is what I believe. It is inexcusable for people not to think, and for people not to take responsibility for their actions. It is inexcusable for people to make excuses. That said, there is a segment of the population that is, mentally, helpless. I am not speaking of these individuals - those who are still children (by age only; those who are still unaware of much, and can be easily molded), and those who are mentally handicapped, whether from birth or through old age. Adults who manipulate and take advantage of this naievity because they know they can are moral wretches. The young and elderly are easy victims, and anyone who takes advantage of the truly helpless is utterly in the wrong. This is an absolute. [Tangent: This also could be the introduction to a discussion on education and environment - exactly what are the young being taught to regard as the truth? The fields of study with the most drastic implication for being taught incorrectly, or untruthfully, are history and science...ironically, even current events. And unfortunately - but something which is to be expected - religion for a vast number of people is elevated higher than education. Religion is stated as absolute, and fields such as science and history are considered relative.] By the time one is an adult (I will not debate what this age is, because this is a matter of opinion, and of culture), one moves beyond the point where he can use excuses in his life. He is fully responsible for his actions and reactions, and the chain reaction that happens as a result of every action, and he must accept the results, because he helped bring them about. And of course, there are certain things that could happen to someone where he played no role in bringing it about, such as another apartment tenant leaving a candle burning and causing the entire building to burn to the ground, or natural disasters, etc etc. But I'm speaking of everything that does not involve this carelessness by someone else, mindless destruction, or randomness. If that particular adult refuses to see or accept his responsibility, and instead blames things on his past, or on his parents, or on his colleagues, or on his inept decisions, or on the devil, or on God, or on whomever he feels has caused him injustice, then he is still a child and will not easily receive respect from me. I'm speaking of situations that directly impact a person's life. Situations outside of a person's capacity to change or impact cannot be blamed on that individual, as such. World and national politics and the specific decisions that are made by those in power are completely outside of most people's hands, and these people therefore have the right to complain, and protest, and demand changes and improvements, if they disagree. And to not complain or demand, if given the opportunity, would be a denial, and would be hypocritical and inexcusable, and that person would then have no right to voice any opinion on the matter in the future. The other issue, which I alluded to earlier, is that our society has become so backwards that I don't see how it would be conceivable to get it fixed. Because it is so backwards, there are a lot of "people problems" that are getting worse. But back to accountability. I will give a few examples, and let it be known that I do believe there is a very small percentage of the population that have mental illnesses or addictions that are a result of genetic makeup, and this very small percentage should be on medication to manage their disposition. Example 1. The huge numbers of overweight people in the US. They will blame the diet fads that don't work, the fact that they're pre-disposed, genetically, to weight gain and that it's not fair that skinny people don't have this problem, the fact that they don't have time to exercise, the fact that restaurants serve unhealthy food, the fact that weight has always been an issue and they can't keep it off, etc. But these same people don't watch what they eat, they cave in and have a late night snack, they skimp on exercising, they purchase junk food, they eat out several times a week, and they live for short term results. They have no discipline, and they aren't willing to change their lifestyle. Example 2. There are so many personality "disorders" out there now that people are given prescriptions for. This is just a theory, but I think a very plausible one. It is much more comforting to believe one has some sort of disorder that isn't one's fault and which is magically the reason for all of one's problems, rather than going through the extremely lengthy, painful, and difficult process of becoming aware of yourself and your personality, making lifestyle adjustments to better cope with it, and really digging into your problems to find the reason behind them and dealing with your emotions and issues firsthand. - 6/25/2004.

...................

I just re-read this entire page, and while I am still in agreement with everything I wrote, it's still a little bit scary to read postings that are filled with anger and bitterness. But I think these are valid emotions, and it's healthy to deal with them and accept them for what they are...it's just not healthy to continue in those states indefinitely. Life truly is a journey, and a bumpy one at that. And all of my writing is testament to this fact -- that life is an evolution of thoughts and feelings, and growth as an individual is of utmost importance, and utmost necessity (for me). I never want to stop growing, because it is when I stop growing that I begin to despair. Movement is critical; without movement, my spirit suffers. - 08/19/2004

[spirilis]

(read most of the post)

All I see is a continual interplay of Ni -- reducing tons of your own thoughts to truths about what's really happening, and adding that society/other-people-oriented bend of Fe to it all (e.g., begging the question "why are these people laying such disservice to society with <insert Ni-inspired reason here>?")

And the mood of the content sounds like the fiery cauldron of an Idealist.

[cascadeco]

Originally Posted by spirilis

(read most of the post)

All I see is a continual interplay of Ni -- reducing tons of your own thoughts to truths about what's really happening, and adding that society/other-people-oriented bend of Fe to it all (e.g., begging the question "why are these people laying such disservice to society with <insert Ni-inspired reason here>?")

And the mood of the content sounds like the fiery cauldron of an Idealist.

Awesome. Thanks so much for your input!!

Really, that helps a lot. It's one of the main things that's been perplexing me about being an NF. Just all of those profiles and such make it sound like we're a bunch of saints, and I don't feel that way about myself at all. I think I can be rather mean (at least inwardly), unempathetic, and pretty selfish at times (not that selfishness is in and of itself a bad thing), and it's something that alarms me and that I can't really reconcile with all the warm fuzzies and alwaying-wanting-to-help vibes that I get from profiles and general stereotypes.

Fiery cauldron. hehe.