Read this or die

[Bush]

In MBTI terms -- most certainly narrowed down to NxFeTi. I solicited a few years back (and won ENFJ), and now I'm especially wondering what the new blood comes up with. The main beef I have with ENFJ is that Ti-last doesn't seem to make any goddamned sense, and it was in fact a thread on inferior Ti that made me question. However, pretty much every single ENTP quote on this page triggers my gag reflex. And I'm nowhere near special enough for INFJ. So, an impasse.

I wrote a reply out to [MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION]'s reply in a Socionics thread, and it became way too goddamned long to not just stick in a "Type me." Hence this thread.

For context (and giggles), here's the post he's referencing:

Virtually all of of the professional Socionics folks who've dug into me (e.g. interviews) have pegged me as LIE (ENTj). Really, I can see either γ-Ni type (ENTj, INTp) as feasible.

I could also see ENTp, but I'd ultimately nix it because having to engage with its Super-id IMs (Si and Fe) make me want to stab myself. That is, screw the emotional atmosphere, screw dramatics, screw aesthetics, and screw "listening to my body." It's my impatience that forces me to avoid that stuff whenever possible. (And if I could live without having to eat or work out or sleep, I totally would just toss those things in the garbage.)

However, that typing messes with consistency and fries some folks' brains and makes them angry but tough titties to them. I'm always open to other perspectives, though, so long as they're not motivated by some hilarious outcry that carrots and mashed potatoes shouldn't touch each other on the plate.

His reply and my counterreply:

Hmm. I think I'll avoid delicacy, here, and just say that this post screams ENFj to me. Powerful Ni in ENFj's creative (2nd Function, part of ENFj's FeNi ego) function position is demonstrated by Ni's desire to limit options (i.e. "no, not that type," "no, not that type," "no, not that type,"), and I see you doing that while keeping an open mind (very mentally flexible--still open to other options, a typical feature of dialectical-algorithmic cognition (EIE) and not the causal-deterministic thinking that typifies LIE). Hyperbolic, performative language ("x fries people's brains," "x makes me want to stab myself," "hilarious outcry") comes naturally to ENFj (but ENTp can do that too). These words were also indicative: "screw the emotional atmosphere, screw dramatics, screw aesthetics." ENFj feels too much as is. We often have to limit the amount of raw F that we just naturally absorb, and you express, quite dramatically (like an ENFj performer), that desire. I also hate drama in my life, and that's typical of an ENFj because we value, more than anything else, stable interpersonal relationships. I share your aversion to interpersonal drama, as one would expect from an ENFj.

What really tipped me off though was this: "I could live without having to eat or work out or sleep, I totally would just toss those things in the garbage." Same here. Juvenile Si. I consider both sleep and eating to be a waste of time, and I wouldn't do them unless I had to. That's strong N (time sense) combined with an impending sense that there's never enough time. Both Gamma and Beta experience this feeling (as decisive types), but Gamma (LIE, ENTj) should be more focused on problem-solution thinking, whereas I see "emoting" and evaluation in this post. You show strong, but subconscious, Fi values (i.e. "It's silly to be obsessed with keeping food separate on your plate."), but they're expressed through some powerful and dramatic Fe OUTPUT.

I strongly agree on exaggeration and hyperbole and dramatic output.

I swear to Christ that, when I type things like "screw the emotional atmosphere, screw dramatics, screw aesthetics," I'm not also sitting at my desk all teary-eyed throwing vases and glasses everywhere. Honestly, my exaggeration is almost never a product of anger or other strong emotions.

When exaggeration isn't fueled by strong emotion [size](drama! dramatics! oh how doth thouest hurt me. yea this river shalt be my tomb forevermore if you don't pick up the phone next time I call)[/size], it may very well be fueled by imagination. A world where everything is all taken totally ad absurdum is, of course, absurdly amusing -- and the material universe triggers a short excursion from time to time. I also imagine that an Ni type can get pretty impatient. If, in their mind, they 'know' what the outcome of a situation will be, they may just want that outcome to happen already so that they can just move on to the next thing. Perhaps almost as if they feel they're outpacing the present and the world has to play catch-up.

I'm on board with that. I also understand that an Ni-er will choose an option but continue to "doubt" (i.e. test) that option. Touche, Socionics.

But I have trouble with tying some of these traits to certain IMs. For instance, it seems that fixating upon developing stable interpersonal relationships would, stereotypically, land in Fi territory -- someone who values Fi would fixate upon those (and may look for "the one" to come and save them..?). Additionally, someone with a vulnerable Fi could very well be overloaded by feels and dramatics, too; and arguably much more quickly than an Fe-ego, who is allegedly capable of controlling the overall emotional atmosphere and so by nature should be able to handle it.

(And I can't help but notice that you like bold as much as I like italics for emphasizing -- or exaggerating! -- words or phrases that would carry an inflection when you're actually speaking.)


However, I do want to clarify something:

Your signature also feels very ENFj to me. It starts with an expressed Fi value ("Forgive my typos."), and that's indicative of a person who will beat himself (or herself) up mercilessly for violating one's own Fi value system, and an ENFj hates to do that. It's followed by an Fe attempt to affect the "mood" of others ("Lol.") Then there's a line that, if meant in jest, is an obvious Fe attempt to affect mood. Either that, or it's like the credentials listed below it (aristocratic, prestige-driven, Beta values) that Alphas and Gammas typically do not share. In fact, they often perceive such behavior as unnecessary (since, being democratic, they see all of us as equal) or obnoxious (show-off behavior) that they poorly tolerate. Thus, Alpha (ENTp, ILE) and Gamma (ENTj, LIE) seem unlikely for you. [...] Your final signature quote, furthermore, is gorgeous and idealistic--highly emotive, and very typical of an ENFj. You even self-attribute it,

tbh I didn't invent the iPhone 7 and I'm neither a Lieutenant or a canonized saint.

Really, the signature is a knock on the sort of pretentious attitude that would lead someone to hold such a signature in earnest. A total exaggeration. (If I recall correctly, Michael Scott from The Office is a good example of that attitude? Maybe?)

So the collection of words in the signature aren't me directly describing myself. But I'm sure they're indirectly descriptive. For one, there's the adage "Don't bullshit a bullshitter"; I'm not exactly a stranger to these sorts of tactics. For two, well -- Hyperbolic? Check. Dramatic expression of a strong, subconscious value? Yeah.

Here's the skinny.

Many a startup CEO, department lead, motivational speaker, etc. envisions him/herself as an.. envisioner.. who inspires and leads and mentors. And, well -- they'd just get right down into the trenches with their employees and they aren't afraid of the dirty work and dammit we can all pull this off we're all tugging on this rope together and you can do it I believe in you. Synergy. Impact. Leadership. Vision. Dreams.

The millions of stations/positions they list in their email signatures are intended to convey importance. Invariably, you'll see something along the lines of "Discoverer" or "Explorer" or "Lifelong Learner" as a way to convey humility -- and that, along with a saccharine uninspired (and often self-referencing) quote, conveys wisdom and a keen eye toward personal growth. They have a whole lot of wonderful insight to share, of course, but hey; they're clearly not arrogant enough to think they know all the answers, and they're humble enough to admit it. And since they're all out in the world visioning and synergizing and leadershipping, they would of course not have time to sit down at a computer -- they're just totally on the go all the time. And they have a sense of humor! And so you'll invariably see "Forgive my typos my thumbs did it lol" as another humblebrag.

These folks clearly never got past Marketing Yourself 101.

Besides which, most of your writing in this post is emotive, emotionally-charged, and evaluative (F) rather than problem-solution oriented (T).

There's this, though.

I note that the words above your avatar, "NEW! Now with more tert," also hint toward an ENFj typing as ENFj is known for regularly re-inventing or reincarnating itself in some way.

The whole "NEW! Now --" is another branding joke, but perhaps also indirectly telling. Regardless, I have been told that I do go through "reincarnations." Guilty.

And although I don't care about carrots touching peas -- that is, keeping one's own MBTI and Socionics types aligned logically so that everything just fits -- I should mention that ENFJ is one of the MBTI types that others (and I) have seen in myself. That can be (very reluctantly) taken as strengthening the case for Socionics' ENFj. (I may have to start a "type me" thing.)

You also certainly had me at "dialectical-algorithmic." As evidenced, I'm clearly suggestible while at the same time wanting some definition; and I had no idea that there was a term for that. I liken it to throwing a lot of junk into the hallway closet and pushing like hell to try to close the door.

 

[Kheledon]

Well, I don't want to die quite yet, so I am glad I read this post. :whew:

OK, so, an insincere Gamma, Jack London type entrepreneur! LIE, ENTj

We EIEs can be so gullible. We're naturally sincere, and we have a hard time catching it when others are not. Hope you enjoyed the game.

btw, your cognitive style should be Vortical-Synergetic. Oh, and I just adore the fact that LIE is the acronym for this sociotype. It's perfect.

 

[á´…eparted]

[MENTION=22264]jscrothers[/MENTION] FWIW I am an ENFJ that generally doesn't display the vibes of one, and I generally don't look that similar to most ENFJ's that I meet except for the fact that I am a super extroverted animated chatterbox with a flair for theatrics (which is hardly a type indicator). There's plenty of ENFJ things that make me go .

As such, it's perfectly reasonable that you could be an ENTP. I have always seen you as an ENxx at minimum, and lean more towards a more organized Ne-dom. An atypical one, but it makes the most sense. I always had a difficult time seeing ENFJ for you.

Socionics is something different, and that you seem a lot more solid on. As you well know those two theories do not always align. They certainly don't in me as I am SLE. Which sort of explains the oddities associated with being ENFJ. Being a different sociotype (in particular in a different quadrant) could very well explain some of the discongruency.

You're clearly a 3w4 though, I don't think anyone would dare question that .

 

[prplchknz]

I don't know but this:

When exaggeration isn't fueled by strong emotion [size](drama! dramatics! oh how doth thouest hurt me. yea this river shalt be my tomb forevermore if you don't pick up the phone next time I call)[/size].

was my favorite part.

 

[entropie]

do i need to ? its so much to read

 

[ceecee]

I have to laugh that people take away SO much from signatures. And for the record, you always strike me as ENTP.

 

[entropie]

veryvery very young entp and american entp ^^

 

[Kheledon]

I don't know but this:
was my favorite part.

I liked it too. Socionics theorists like to use archtypes to convey the "feeling" of a given Sociotype. EIE is Hamlet. "To be or not to be. That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler ... etc." EIE is prone to drama and hyperbole ("Oh, woe is me!") and will sacrifice itself for its values (as did Hamlet).

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Alpha.

It's pretty obvious to me your listed "credentials" are not beta-driven but rather were listed in a playful manner of thumbing your nose at the sorts of people who would place a greater emphasis on one's rank than they would on one's ideas, words, actions, et al.

ENTp, methinks

 

[strychnine]

Can you clarify a bit on "screw the emotional atmosphere"? How do you see emotional atmosphere and what do you mean by screw it? Are you expressing that you simply don't care about sharing an emotional atmosphere with others around you?

You do come off rather Te/Ni to me. Remember, LIE has Fe role, which means it's a 2D and unvalued element. So it's one you can consciously use when desired, and you'll do a decent job of it (as well as a Fe HA type) - it just won't be one that you value.

Yeah, I do see traces of Fi from you as well, but it's far more consistent with Fi DS than Fi PoLR. (Fi PoLR types won't even show the traces. LOL.)

I know we aren't in the Socionics sub-forum, but you linked to this in a Soc thread so here I am.

 

[Rambling]

In MBTI terms -- most certainly narrowed down to NxFeTi. I solicited a few years back (and won ENFJ), and now I'm especially wondering what the new blood comes up with. The main beef I have with ENFJ is that Ti-last doesn't seem to make any goddamned sense, and it was in fact a thread on inferior Ti that made me question. However, pretty much every single ENTP quote on this page triggers my gag reflex. And I'm nowhere near special enough for INFJ. So, an impasse.

I like you already, and that sense of connection in that particular way which I feel tends to make me think you are ENTJ.

You talk like an Ni type, it's clipped, terse, covers a lot of ground but around a coherent central issue which you see and describe from different facets, like describing a diamond by walking around it and staring from different angles.

You're not certain from your inner being (Fi) what you are, you are seeking to define yourself by the herd telling you, that's
A) Fe because you're looking to others to define yourself. I would never do that, if I were asking my type (and [MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION] looks very good at doing this so one day I might stick my nose above the parapet) I'd be asking for confirmation of my own view, not for the ideas of others...
B) a statement about your own value or need to be valued by others, again that's Fe since Fi is self-valuing, self-referential feedback.

I wrote a reply out to [MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION]'s reply in a Socionics thread, and it became way too goddamned long to not just stick in a "Type me." Hence this thread.

For context (and giggles), here's the post he's referencing:


His reply and my counterreply:
I strongly agree on exaggeration and hyperbole and dramatic output.

I swear to Christ that, when I type things like "screw the emotional atmosphere, screw dramatics, screw aesthetics," I'm not also sitting at my desk all teary-eyed throwing vases and glasses everywhere. Honestly, my exaggeration is almost never a product of anger or other strong emotions.

When exaggeration isn't fueled by strong emotion [size](drama! dramatics! oh how doth thouest hurt me. yea this river shalt be my tomb forevermore if you don't pick up the phone next time I call)[/size], it may very well be fueled by imagination. A world where everything is all taken totally ad absurdum is, of course, absurdly amusing -- and the material universe triggers a short excursion from time to time. I also imagine that an Ni type can get pretty impatient. If, in their mind, they 'know' what the outcome of a situation will be, they may just want that outcome to happen already so that they can just move on to the next thing. Perhaps almost as if they feel they're outpacing the present and the world has to play catch-up.

I'm on board with that. I also understand that an Ni-er will choose an option but continue to "doubt" (i.e. test) that option. Touche, Socionics.

I think this is very much Fe expression of Ni. I totally get the whole language thing and mine is opposite to this...I could force myself to write 'I feel upset' and there'd be a world of inner misery I couldn't put into language there, for example. But I could play logical meanings wordplay for hours when I'm in the mood for it. Yours is words for effect, words to change the mood of others, words for excitement or banality or humour or absurdity but based upon human issues and feelings which are common to all, you are writing rationally to evoke that feeling in the reader, for exaggeration or humour or ridicule of a situation. Tbh as INTJ this is the 30% of xNFJ which I find hardest to deal with, because I feel intensely and each of these intensities is something I'd take seriously - for me it feels like skipping over emotional puddles on the floor...I'd avoid or downplay them in my response to avoid becoming innerly overwhelmed and you'd upplay them to find out why I was devaluing you and your feelings...end result is exhausted inner feels for me and frustrated can't get through to her feels for you...

But I have trouble with tying some of these traits to certain IMs. For instance, it seems that fixating upon developing stable interpersonal relationships would, stereotypically, land in Fi territory -- someone who values Fi would fixate upon those (and may look for "the one" to come and save them..?). Additionally, someone with a vulnerable Fi could very well be overloaded by feels and dramatics, too; and arguably much more quickly than an Fe-ego, who is allegedly capable of controlling the overall emotional atmosphere and so by nature should be able to handle it.

Wrong. Fi is any value, so an Fi user who decides their partner no longer suits them will walk out the door, so that could be a partner-hopper scenario. It depends on the value which is held.

And yes, this is sort of what I was getting at, the Fe controlling the atmosphere and the Fi overwhelmed by it...but I don't think you understand how to use that properly to help the Fi user. Reading your post I just giggled but IRL I'd draw back from engaging with you because I wouldn't trust you not to overdo it. The best way it works is if you imagine you're making a stage, a theatre, a front of house, a place where I as Fi feel safe to perform in your interested limelight spotlight...that's the dynamic and it takes gentleness and accuracy, not overloaded Fe power, to produce it so the fine tuned Fi can show itself. I think I'm pretty mature along this line and I'm robust enough to come out of the shadows and say all this... But if you argue I will likely *shrug and retreat* since I know I'm right and I won't risk getting hurt innerly by an argument, see? I know that's illogical but that's very much how my Fi works as tertiary.

(And I can't help but notice that you like bold as much as I like italics for emphasizing -- or exaggerating! -- words or phrases that would carry an inflection when you're actually speaking.)


However, I do want to clarify something:
tbh I didn't invent the iPhone 7 and I'm neither a Lieutenant or a canonized saint.

Really, the signature is a knock on the sort of pretentious attitude that would lead someone to hold such a signature in earnest. A total exaggeration. (If I recall correctly, Michael Scott from The Office is a good example of that attitude? Maybe?)

So the collection of words in the signature aren't me directly describing myself. But I'm sure they're indirectly descriptive. For one, there's the adage "Don't bullshit a bullshitter"; I'm not exactly a stranger to these sorts of tactics. For two, well -- Hyperbolic? Check. Dramatic expression of a strong, subconscious value? Yeah.

Here's the skinny.

Many a startup CEO, department lead, motivational speaker, etc. envisions him/herself as an.. envisioner.. who inspires and leads and mentors. And, well -- they'd just get right down into the trenches with their employees and they aren't afraid of the dirty work and dammit we can all pull this off we're all tugging on this rope together and you can do it I believe in you. Synergy. Impact. Leadership. Vision. Dreams.

The millions of stations/positions they list in their email signatures are intended to convey importance. Invariably, you'll see something along the lines of "Discoverer" or "Explorer" or "Lifelong Learner" as a way to convey humility -- and that, along with a saccharine uninspired (and often self-referencing) quote, conveys wisdom and a keen eye toward personal growth. They have a whole lot of wonderful insight to share, of course, but hey; they're clearly not arrogant enough to think they know all the answers, and they're humble enough to admit it. And since they're all out in the world visioning and synergizing and leadershipping, they would of course not have time to sit down at a computer -- they're just totally on the go all the time. And they have a sense of humor! And so you'll invariably see "Forgive my typos my thumbs did it lol" as another humblebrag.

These folks clearly never got past Marketing Yourself 101.

There's this, though.
The whole "NEW! Now --" is another branding joke, but perhaps also indirectly telling. Regardless, I have been told that I do go through "reincarnations." Guilty.

And although I don't care about carrots touching peas -- that is, keeping one's own MBTI and Socionics types aligned logically so that everything just fits -- I should mention that ENFJ is one of the MBTI types that others (and I) have seen in myself. That can be (very reluctantly) taken as strengthening the case for Socionics' ENFj. (I may have to start a "type me" thing.)

You also certainly had me at "dialectical-algorithmic." As evidenced, I'm clearly suggestible while at the same time wanting some definition; and I had no idea that there was a term for that. I liken it to throwing a lot of junk into the hallway closet and pushing like hell to try to close the door.

Two more points which didn't fit in earlier...

1) I think your Ti frustrates you, that you haven't got it all sewn up about yourself in a logical way.

2) That ENTP page was really pretty useless as far as I could see.

 

[meowington]

ENTJ *my profiling qualities are worth diddly squat*

I notice zero F vibe.

 

[Starry]

You're clearly a 3w4 though, I don't think anyone would dare question that .

I actually did question the 4 in 3w4 Hard...and contrary to what your statement perhaps suggests...received a great deal of compliment and praise for doing so. (Okay, the truth is... I was basically told I type for shit.)

I still question it though. I just don't see the self-preoccupation I would expect but rather an individual that works hard for others...that has an awareness of others that seems effortless or is hidden in a way that strikes me as being 3w2ish.

Kinda like [MENTION=5789]Beorn[/MENTION] (haha )

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Ravenclaw

 

[á´…eparted]

I actually did question the 4 in 3w4 Hard...and contrary to what your statement perhaps suggests...received a great deal of compliment and praise for doing so. (Okay, the truth is... I was basically told I type for shit.)

I still question it though. I just don't see the self-preoccupation I would expect but rather an individual that works hard for others...that has an awareness of others that seems effortless or is hidden in a way that strikes me as being 3w2ish.

My comment was partially in jest.

I'd be open to 3w2. I lean towards 4 as a wing largely because when he gets into talking how he approaches and thinks about others, he generally focuses on his needs and goals before others. That's not to say others are ignored, but it's more that it's ok to have them be dismissed in place of pushing himself along. There is a general care towards others though, and a desire for their wellbeing to one extent or another.

 

[Bush]

Huh. You guys are awesome. Here's half of a reply..?

btw, your cognitive style should be Vortical-Synergetic. Oh, and I just adore the fact that LIE is the acronym for this sociotype.

You gave me another thing to look up and some cold, hard truth at the same time.

From here, for what it matters, I relate much more with Dynamic than Static style thinking. Everything needs a reference point in order for it to be of any worth. The answer to, say, "How quickly could you write an excerpt for this paper?" wholly depends on context. I could hammer something out in 10 minutes if the stakes aren't so high, but you can bet that it'd take me more than 10 minutes to write if my job depends on it.

[MENTION=22264]jscrothers[/MENTION] FWIW I am an ENFJ that generally doesn't display the vibes of one, and I generally don't look that similar to most ENFJ's that I meet except for the fact that I am a super extroverted animated chatterbox with a flair for theatrics (which is hardly a type indicator). There's plenty of ENFJ things that make me go .

As such, it's perfectly reasonable that you could be an ENTP. I have always seen you as an ENxx at minimum, and lean more towards a more organized Ne-dom. An atypical one, but it makes the most sense. I always had a difficult time seeing ENFJ for you.

Socionics is something different, and that you seem a lot more solid on. As you well know those two theories do not always align. They certainly don't in me as I am SLE. Which sort of explains the oddities associated with being ENFJ. Being a different sociotype (in particular in a different quadrant) could very well explain some of the discongruency.

You're clearly a 3w4 though, I don't think anyone would dare question that .

You've got a point. There's a lot of ENTP-associated stuff that makes me go , too. Putting debate on a pedestal is way up there on the list.

I don't know but this:
was my favorite part.

them botched [size] tags

do i need to ? its so much to read

Should've titled it "Click this or die", because I'll be damned if I actually expect anyone to read something that long.

It's pretty obvious to me your listed "credentials" are not beta-driven but rather were listed in a playful manner of thumbing your nose at the sorts of people who would place a greater emphasis on one's rank than they would on one's ideas, words, actions, et al.

Totally. Fully saturated Three-ness, too. Naked emperors are hilarious.

Can you clarify a bit on "screw the emotional atmosphere"? How do you see emotional atmosphere and what do you mean by screw it? Are you expressing that you simply don't care about sharing an emotional atmosphere with others around you?

You do come off rather Te/Ni to me. Remember, LIE has Fe role, which means it's a 2D and unvalued element. So it's one you can consciously use when desired, and you'll do a decent job of it (as well as a Fe HA type) - it just won't be one that you value.

Yeah, I do see traces of Fi from you as well, but it's far more consistent with Fi DS than Fi PoLR. (Fi PoLR types won't even show the traces. LOL.)

I know we aren't in the Socionics sub-forum, but you linked to this in a Soc thread so here I am.

One aspect of this is that emotions are gonna be whatever they're gonna be. If, say, I have to attend a party that I don't want to attend, I can run on autopilot but not for very long. A chipper environment won't make me chipper, and so I may have to hold my breath and dive in.

On Socionics -- typology is typology, a bunch of lights shining on the same phenomenon. I'm down with anything from MBTI to Socionics to Enneagram to Color Code to Interaction Style to D&D Alignment to that weird Japanese ABO thing to Mane Six to Favorite Pokemon. Maybe even Keirsey if we're desperate.

 

[Yama]

On Socionics -- typology is typology, a bunch of lights shining on the same phenomenon. I'm down with anything from MBTI to Socionics to Enneagram to Color Code to Interaction Style to D&D Alignment to that weird Japanese ABO thing to Mane Six to Favorite Pokemon. Maybe even Keirsey if we're desperate.

applejack?

i had to

 

[Bush]

I like you already, and that sense of connection in that particular way which I feel tends to make me think you are ENTJ.

It's probably in and of itself telling that I value that connection.

You talk like an Ni type, it's clipped, terse,

Hm. Not really seeing it. hah

covers a lot of ground but around a coherent central issue which you see and describe from different facets, like describing a diamond by walking around it and staring from different angles.

But seriously, I am a fan of using that method

I figure -- if you stare at a short can of soup from either the top or the side, but not both, you're going to insist that you're looking at either a sphere or a cube. The rectanglists and the sphereists think that the other camp is full of total dipshits; though in reality, everyone involved is dealing with a 2D projection of a 3D thing. So it's best to move around once in a while if you're going to analyze or explain something.

You're not certain from your inner being (Fi) what you are,

It's true. I don't feel any sort of strong internal kernel, and I don't feel bothered by it. My view is that many things are much more situational and relative than we think, including identity; and that identity is a useful construct and nothing more, etc etc. -- so, a standpoint with an Fe flavor.

Or.. well, "not-Fi, and so Fe by elimination" flavor.

I think this is very much Fe expression of Ni. I totally get the whole language thing and mine is opposite to this...I could force myself to write 'I feel upset' and there'd be a world of inner misery I couldn't put into language there, for example. But I could play logical meanings wordplay for hours when I'm in the mood for it. Yours is words for effect, words to change the mood of others, words for excitement or banality or humour or absurdity but based upon human issues and feelings which are common to all, you are writing rationally to evoke that feeling in the reader, for exaggeration or humour or ridicule of a situation.

Reading your post I just giggled but IRL I'd draw back from engaging with you because I wouldn't trust you not to overdo it. The best way it works is if you imagine you're making a stage, a theatre, a front of house, a place where I as Fi feel safe to perform in your interested limelight spotlight...that's the dynamic and it takes gentleness and accuracy, not overloaded Fe power, to produce it so the fine tuned Fi can show itself. I think I'm pretty mature along this line and I'm robust enough to come out of the shadows and say all this... But if you argue I will likely *shrug and retreat* since I know I'm right and I won't risk getting hurt innerly by an argument, see? I know that's illogical but that's very much how my Fi works as tertiary.

Oh, totally. If you want someone to perform for you, you'd damn well better accommodate them; otherwise, you can't expect a display in the first place, and even if you do get one it probably wouldn't be honest.

Really, if you actually want ideas to be heard in general, you need to create a space where they can be laid out. If you're in a meeting with a bunch of obnoxious loudmouths and some quiet but smart folks, you'd damn well make sure those quiet folks have some bandwidth. It might take breaking up a conversation and then asking those quiet folks pointed questions, also ensuring everyone else shuts the hell up for a few seconds. If you don't do that, you're (a) unwittingly measuring the value of ideas by how (or whether) they're conveyed, (b) throwing bias into the whole thing, and (c) doing those quiet but smart folks a disservice as actual human beings.

Understanding people takes an actual understanding of people. When I say "screw the emotional environment," I also mean "screw trying to force people out of their domain (e.g. a shell) and into yours."

Wrong. Fi is any value, so an Fi user who decides their partner no longer suits them will walk out the door, so that could be a partner-hopper scenario. It depends on the value which is held.

Two things:
To rephrase: rather, Fi would be more likely than Fe to have the interpersonal relationship (even if just as a concept) flavoring their thoughts and decisions.
(Though, right there we were talking about Socionics's take on Fi, which is much more focused on the interpersonal than MBTI's.)

I think your Ti frustrates you, that you haven't got it all sewn up about yourself in a logical way.

I do have plenty of struggle with identity, the self, my own potential, my role, etc. (hi 3w4), for sure. But that a completely confident mapping of psyche to type assumes an immalleable object and a firm caliper -- neither of which we have.

That doesn't mean that the whole exercise is worthless, but it's also not something to get myself worked up about. "Intuition + Ti/Fe axis" has enough explanatory power; the rest is just gravy.

That ENTP page was really pretty useless as far as I could see.

Totally. I just find it pretty goddamned hilarious that many of the quotes picked to demonstrate ENTP-ness are about debate and being right and digging up errors and making someone else look like a bitch. That is definitely an ENTP thing that, regardless of type, makes me go (to borrow a word or two from [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]).

"To hold a pen is to be at war" indeed.

 

[Masokissed]

ENTP

 

[strychnine]

One aspect of this is that emotions are gonna be whatever they're gonna be. If, say, I have to attend a party that I don't want to attend, I can run on autopilot but not for very long. A chipper environment won't make me chipper, and so I may have to hold my breath and dive in.

On Socionics -- typology is typology, a bunch of lights shining on the same phenomenon. I'm down with anything from MBTI to Socionics to Enneagram to Color Code to Interaction Style to D&D Alignment to that weird Japanese ABO thing to Mane Six to Favorite Pokemon. Maybe even Keirsey if we're desperate.

OK, this is Fe devaluing. An Fe type, especially a type with Fe in the super id block (tertiary/inferior), would eat up such a chipper environment. It would make them chipper, generally. An Fe tertiary type would even be consciously aware of this effect.

I do agree with typology is typology.