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  1. #11
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    IESNFTPJ --- Lord
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  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'll toss this quote in again since Ni is an important aspect of your investigation. This is that 'pure' Ni definition I referred to that shows its distilled form. I think people could likely still be a Ni-dom and not be this extremely the case because there are just too many people who feel half-way between various functions, including Ni-Si or Ni-Ne. What do you think of it? He describes two types of Ni-doms and doesn't differentiate between the INFJ and INTJ, interestingly enough.

    9. The Introverted Intuitive Type

    The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and -- in the case of a productive artist-the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle. [p. 509]

    If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man 'gone wrong', a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for 'psychological' novels.

    Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world? The pure intuitive who represses judgment or possesses it only under the spell of perception never meets this question fundamentally, since his only problem is the How of perception. He, therefore, finds the moral problem unintelligible, even absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell upon the disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally orientated intuitive. He concerns himself with the meaning of his vision; he troubles less about its further æsthetic possibilities than about the possible moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and as a totality, is in some way inter-related with his vision, that [p. 510] it is something which cannot just be perceived but which also would fain become the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken -- it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness'.

    The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete 'sublimation' is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects. [p. 511]
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #13
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I question some of your definitions of Ni, so I'm not sure that is the dominant function. Perhaps the Ni is stronger than Ne for you, but I'm not certain.

    Si stands out as a strong function for you because the descriptions of Se are not a striking as they would be for someone who operates with much Se. Also, some of your references to Fe could also be related to Si.

    You feel somewhere in the middle for F and T. You concern for category leans in the direct of Te, but I'm not clear about whether Te or Ti is strong for you.

    I also had trouble reading your F function, but I think you lean towards more Fe than Fi.

    Except for your description of being rather non-structured, I had something of an ISFJ impression, but it's not exactly a conclusion. I will add that I don't think people fit into the categories like boxes and there are people who feel very Si/Ni dom at the same time. They can seem like they have an inward perceptive focus, but it is different from the more extreme Ni-dom descriptions of Jung, but they are also not exactly like the pure Si-dom descriptions. You describe more awareness and sensitivity towards social norms than most T's would care much about, and even perhaps more concern than some iNtuitives would have. It's tough call going off of rather limited info, so take my input with the grain of salt it comes with.

    If I had to offer up a type, I'd say you sound like an IXFJ.

    One added complexity to typing is that we are influenced by the people we live with. I grew up with Fi-doms and that changes the way I process information. I currently live with another INFJ who was raised by a strong Si-dom mother, and he switches back and forth between extreme Ni-dom and what appears to be Si. Some people are consistently half-way between those two function as a dominant function and some people flip flop between extremes, so there are all kinds of complexities that get thrown into the mix.

    This sounds more like Ni than your OP descriptions. Ni is not exactly singular in thought, but more like a tree in the wind. There is a trunk, a core underlying focus, but it branches off into many complex directions and there is a value placed on seeing the world from different perspectives. This can be amplified by Ni-Fe that can get so lost in viewing the world through everyone else's eyes that you can become detached from your own perspective. That can also happen with Si-Fe, but more within the context of a cultural set of shared assumptions. Ni-doms are more likely to detach from self and even ego when they are the more extreme versions of being an introverted perceptive dominant type. That is both a vice and virtue. It's not to say it's superior because it can be just as much of a disadvantage. There is a reason people have their internal ego focus, so a balance tends to be the ideal.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'll toss this quote in again since Ni is an important aspect of your investigation. This is that 'pure' Ni definition I referred to that shows its distilled form. I think people could likely still be a Ni-dom and not be this extremely the case because there are just too many people who feel half-way between various functions, including Ni-Si or Ni-Ne. What do you think of it? He describes two types of Ni-doms and doesn't differentiate between the INFJ and INTJ, interestingly enough.
    Excuse me for the delay.

    I would like to point out in my posts that I did put more S related things making it seem I use more sensory related functions than I do intuitive functions as I feel it may be harder to describe intuition to others.

    If those Si things are all correct, I guess I may have more of a preference for it than I thought. From Dr. A.J. Drenth from PersonalityJunkie he says that the most underlooked thing about Si is a state of bodily awareness, which I tell in other posts that I have a strong lack of, a more blending in to the background. The thing I understand about Si is that those who use it tend to be more comfortable in "familiar" environments and thrive in it.

    My job as a cashier I do the same thing over and over again and at first I was very intimidated by the unfamiliarity of it but I believe both Ni and Si users will be uncomfortable with very new things at first, although my desire for learning it was positive. My trainer would say I'd look in fear and I told her I'm clumsy and I still sometimes do but now I don't put myself down as much and tend to be extra gentle with people's stuff now. I guess you could say I'm very sensitive to criticism so I ask as many as questions as needed to make sure everybody gets what they want and other days where people treat me like crud no matter what I do I tend to just move faster just so they can go away. Almost every day I'm in there where I'm like wow I'm a nobody here. Some people see me so transparent it's not even funny.

    I sometimes see right before I fix my eyes a certain body language or a face on somebody before it comes to eyes directly on them. I believe I can look into what people are feeling and it's not so much always their facial expressions.

    I think Ni and Si can look similar in their approach but the process is much different. While I can be quite talkative, there are many times I have a hard time telling people what I see because each word has its own interpretation and because my drawing skills aren't that great and even then it is still hard to tell even with a drawing (even if I had amazing drawing skills) with what I could share with people.

    I think it's with my newlyfound 1w9 after reading the Wisdom of the Enneagram I have many high standards that I judge myself and people by and I'm learning not to criticize others anymore, it makes you unlikeable and most of the time doesn't get anything done with others. As the same with gossipping which is the form I used the most when I want to go spill my feelings which it's hard to express without explaining the situation. But I'll learn.

    Thank you for your input @fia . I do not believe I fit the purity of Ni as Jung mentions however this was interesting too:
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  4. #14
    Senior Member KitchenFly's Avatar
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    Default Be honest. Type me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    @KitchenFly Got the whole package for me thanks! So you think my Ni is inferior?
    No I don't particularly think your Ni is inferior,, since you posed the question I could only manifest biases as options to reflect upon but if I was to shear my general thoughts in reply I think there is a minimum of 18 different expressions of Ni and each are flices of the archetypal pie we all fest from.

    Ni in my mind is a vie that is not disconnected from the circle of the enneagram and nether come to think of it are the others.
    Ni is much to do with space the experience of being within our own skin. A lot of things can get in the way of our Ni focus of attention as distracting factors that occupy attention our mental space.

    I think Ni has three phases and eighteen views but Ni can also have two phases and nine views. So Ni can be a confusing terrain for some.

    The phase I most enjoy Ni from is the visual gut lead at point nine looking through onto the would and also the visceral through the sense feel onto the immediate terrain sx/sp is my instinctual lens.

    I place a lot of energy into N and I think Ni is my safe place to vie from. I also tend to like the experiential view to be flavoured by other lens view inputs to.

    I am inshore how you use Ni @Forever.

    Ni has many faces.

  5. #15
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KitchenFly View Post
    No I don't particularly think your Ni is inferior,, since you posed the question I could only manifest biases as options to reflect upon but if I was to shear my general thoughts in reply I think there is a minimum of 18 different expressions of Ni and each are flices of the archetypal pie we all fest from.

    Ni in my mind is a vie that is not disconnected from the circle of the enneagram and nether come to think of it are the others.
    Ni is much to do with space the experience of being within our own skin. A lot of things can get in the way of our Ni focus of attention as distracting factors that occupy attention our mental space.

    I think Ni has three phases and eighteen views but Ni can also have two phases and nine views. So Ni can be a confusing terrain for some.

    The phase I most enjoy Ni from is the visual gut lead at point nine looking through onto the would and also the visceral through the sense feel onto the immediate terrain sx/sp is my instinctual lens.

    I place a lot of energy into N and I think Ni is my safe place to vie from. I also tend to like the experiential view to be flavoured by other lens view inputs to.

    I am inshore how you use Ni @Forever.

    Ni has many faces.
    Um, what?

    That idea is completely new and unheard of. Where are you getting the 18 and 3 from or the 9 and 2 from? Are you saying it's all from the Enneagram?

    I don't believe Ni should be too complicated of a definition. I mean while it is an irrational function doesn't mean it should be above all others? It's a perception function.
    While I think my Ni is used through my mind, I don't really get it through my heart, it's like a "knowing" something is wrong but yet it's not like a crystal clear thought either. I believe my Ni really only works for people instead of things.

    I don't know where you are going with this, sorry @KitchenFly .

  6. #16
    Senior Member KitchenFly's Avatar
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    @ Forever yes I am reaching into the deeper end of the enneagram.

    18 subtype energies.
    Three instincts.

    Nine Point Energies, and one wing either side.

    Different variation of how self experiences and the N function could be described as like the unseen space between parts. Ni and Si play a universal role within perception and it could be said the Ne and Se play a universal role in the judgment process as the self orientates a life path. We all have an internal enneagram and all parts are active. So it is reasonable to recognise that all Nine Point Energy Types or / all 18 Subtypes regardless of that Instinctual Type the Self maybe predominantly Utilise Ni - Si and Se - Ne within there usual orientations as a normal human being.

    But maybe that's to deep and disturbed the congenial flow of the topic conversation.

    I would après hate feed back ,perhaps I should reserve transferring my thoughts in to post and just enjoy reading and following the posts. But I guess after 25 years of thinking and reflecting upon the enneagram and MBTI and such things I am more interested in the nuances and less disused facets of structure.

  7. #17
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KitchenFly View Post
    @ Forever yes I am reaching into the deeper end of the enneagram.

    18 subtype energies.
    Three instincts.

    Nine Point Energies, and one wing either side.

    Different variation of how self experiences and the N function could be described as like the unseen space between parts. Ni and Si play a universal role within perception and it could be said the Ne and Se play a universal role in the judgment process as the self orientates a life path. We all have an internal enneagram and all parts are active. So it is reasonable to recognise that all Nine Point Energy Types or / all 18 Subtypes regardless of that Instinctual Type the Self maybe predominantly Utilise Ni - Si and Se - Ne within there usual orientations as a normal human being.

    But maybe that's to deep and disturbed the congenial flow of the topic conversation.

    I would après hate feed back ,perhaps I should reserve transferring my thoughts in to post and just enjoy reading and following the posts. But I guess after 25 years of thinking and reflecting upon the enneagram and MBTI and such things I am more interested in the nuances and less disused facets of structure.
    You're welcome to me more of this whether it be here, message me whether it be visitor/private. It's interesting, nonetheless. @KitchenFly

    I know since I claimed to be a 1w9 but I took the test and I scored low on the test categories of one and highest on 4 next highest on 5 and a very close 3. So I think it had to be 4 and the advice helped me very much for 4.

  8. #18
    Senior Member KitchenFly's Avatar
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    Default Be honest. Type me.

    Type 4 has a degree of melancholy and as there are six instinctual variants we can count 12 different types of type:4. Six types with a 3wing and six types with a 5wing.

    I remember listening to a teacher describe the self preservation instinctual type:4 and something along the lines of, the Sp: 4 takes pride in exercising restraint and response-ability for the lack of overtly expressing there melancholy.

    I think I basically got that right, the Sp 4 feels melancholy like all type fours can and at times feel melancholy but they chose to exercise restraint and focus there energy into proactive mind set energy and get on with things.

    It maybe possible that you are the Sp type 4 and it has made it difficult for you to identify with the standard typology of the "Four".

    I once met two Sp 4s at an enneagram instincts work shop and they seemed to be all about lets get creative and solve the problem, and I found that interesting. They both were counsellors but it seemed to me that regardless of being counsellors I think they would have held that focus in there mind set as a normal attitude and approach.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Yeah INFJ seems to work for you
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  10. #20
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Ni this, Ni that,

    Try Ni on like a hat.

    If you find it doesn't fit,

    Throw it in a darkening pit.

    And should you free it,

    Please also see it.

    Because that was this,

    and this was that.

    So ends a search,

    for a hat.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.
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