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  1. #1
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Default Born as one type but morphed into another due to childhood stressors?

    Hi All,

    This has been discussed so often in typology on this Board: the possibility of being born one type and changing types along the way, making for odd cognitive functions and enneagram combinations. I have an old theory on a thread here Typology Thoughts, stating that under stress, the dom or aux function will morph and change attitudes, becoming introverted (usually) or extraverted when it was in fact supposed to be the other attitude.

    For example, If you were supposed to be an ENFP, your dominant function would be Ne and your aux function would be Fi. If, however, under the influence of neglect or abuse, our intuition was not allowed extraverted room to grow, it might become instead introverted, or Ni. Therefore, your personality might manifest in the world more as Ni/Fi (like Mole on here, as a classic example), giving you and odd flavor of type.

    Confounding this would be enneagram and instinct nature. So an intended natural ENFP could manifest as INFJ (because the dom function is more closely aligned with INFJ, Ni), but perhaps have an enneagram supportive of the more intrinsic nature, 7w8 SX/SO.

    I had originally theorized that the dom function would be the last to change, and that the aux function might be the first to give way to external stressors, but now I am not so sure about that. Since the dominant function is relied on mostly that first 7 years of life, or so, if the major traumas occurred in that time period, it serves to reason that the dominant function would be the most affected. In summation, the function most affected might be the function being predominantly developed at the time of the trauma, or stress.

    Interestingly, perhaps the enneagram instinct is more deep-seated and more difficult to change than our cognitive functions. So if we are in a conundrum about figuring out our type, if we can really get a handle on our enneagram fix, then we can be pointed in the right direction of our original cognitive processes given to us at birth.
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  2. #2
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Hi All,

    This has been discussed so often in typology on this Board: the possibility of being born one type and changing types along the way, making for odd cognitive functions and enneagram combinations. I have an old theory on a thread here Typology Thoughts, stating that under stress, the dom or aux function will morph and change attitudes, becoming introverted (usually) or extraverted when it was in fact supposed to be the other attitude.

    For example, If you were supposed to be an ENFP, your dominant function would be Ne and your aux function would be Fi. If, however, under the influence of neglect or abuse, our intuition was not allowed extraverted room to grow, it might become instead introverted, or Ni. Therefore, your personality might manifest in the world more as Ni/Fi (like Mole on here, as a classic example), giving you and odd flavor of type.

    Confounding this would be enneagram and instinct nature. So an intended natural ENFP could manifest as INFJ (because the dom function is more closely aligned with INFJ, Ni), but perhaps have an enneagram supportive of the more intrinsic nature, 7w8 SX/SO.

    I had originally theorized that the dom function would be the last to change, and that the aux function might be the first to give way to external stressors, but now I am not so sure about that. Since the dominant function is relied on mostly that first 7 years of life, or so, if the major traumas occurred in that time period, it serves to reason that the dominant function would be the most affected. In summation, the function most affected might be the function being predominantly developed at the time of the trauma, or stress.

    Interestingly, perhaps the enneagram instinct is more deep-seated and more difficult to change than our cognitive functions. So if we are in a conundrum about figuring out our type, if we can really get a handle on our enneagram fix, then we can be pointed in the right direction of our original cognitive processes given to us at birth.
    I think this is very true. For example, I started out as an ESFP.

    Full disclosure: what Enneagram *is* the ESFP?
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Full disclosure: what Enneagram *is* the ESFP?
    6, 7, and 8 are most common.

  4. #4
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Hi All,

    This has been discussed so often in typology on this Board: the possibility of being born one type and changing types along the way, making for odd cognitive functions and enneagram combinations. I have an old theory on a thread here Typology Thoughts, stating that under stress, the dom or aux function will morph and change attitudes, becoming introverted (usually) or extraverted when it was in fact supposed to be the other attitude.

    For example, If you were supposed to be an ENFP, your dominant function would be Ne and your aux function would be Fi. If, however, under the influence of neglect or abuse, our intuition was not allowed extraverted room to grow, it might become instead introverted, or Ni. Therefore, your personality might manifest in the world more as Ni/Fi (like Mole on here, as a classic example), giving you and odd flavor of type.

    Confounding this would be enneagram and instinct nature. So an intended natural ENFP could manifest as INFJ (because the dom function is more closely aligned with INFJ, Ni), but perhaps have an enneagram supportive of the more intrinsic nature, 7w8 SX/SO.

    I had originally theorized that the dom function would be the last to change, and that the aux function might be the first to give way to external stressors, but now I am not so sure about that. Since the dominant function is relied on mostly that first 7 years of life, or so, if the major traumas occurred in that time period, it serves to reason that the dominant function would be the most affected. In summation, the function most affected might be the function being predominantly developed at the time of the trauma, or stress.

    Interestingly, perhaps the enneagram instinct is more deep-seated and more difficult to change than our cognitive functions. So if we are in a conundrum about figuring out our type, if we can really get a handle on our enneagram fix, then we can be pointed in the right direction of our original cognitive processes given to us at birth.
    This is an interesting theory. I have a different view. I think you'd have to separate enneagram from MBTI or cognitive function order systems first.

    For Enneagram, there is some interesting stuff posted here that implies parenting does influence type:

    Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs

    I'm not sure if it's true but it is plausible.

    On cognitive functions, I think the development of certain functions can become retarded because environmental influences. Generally, I think that if a particular cognitive function is valued and appreciated by others that it would contribute towards its development. You'd be encouraged to use it. It would be discouraged if others don't appreciate it. Introverted Intuition is not particularly appreciated in our culture, so it would not be surprising that it's development may not be encouraged. Extraverted intuition is a lot more common however and any child who is a dominant intuitive would likely run into others that use that function as well.

    On MBTI, this chart shows that S types (SJ and SP) are a out 73.5% of the overall population

    For women only, Ne doms are 11 % of the overall population (8% + 3%) as compared to 2% Ni doms (1.5% + .5%).

    Frequency of Personality Types by Population & Gender

    It doesn't make sense to me that one would develop a less common function than a more common function due to environmental influences unless that person had a very influential person in their life who used that relatively rare dominant function and valued it in others. Is that what you are getting at?

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  5. #5
    Senior Member cm81's Avatar
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    Would overt trauma in childhood really cause an entire shift in personality, or would it merely exaggerate the extreme complexities within that type?
    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness, preferring silence to everything that it should be." Edgar Allen Poe

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  6. #6
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is an interesting theory. I have a different view. I think you'd have to separate enneagram from MBTI or cognitive function order systems first.

    For Enneagram, there is some interesting stuff posted here that implies parenting does influence type:

    Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs

    I'm not sure if it's true but it is plausible.

    On cognitive functions, I think the development of certain functions can become retarded because environmental influences. Generally, I think that if a particular cognitive function is valued and appreciated by others that it would contribute towards its development. You'd be encouraged to use it. It would be discouraged if others don't appreciate it. Introverted Intuition is not particularly appreciated in our culture, so it would not be surprising that it's development may not be encouraged. Extraverted intuition is a lot more common however and any child who is a dominant intuitive would likely run into others that use that function as well.

    On MBTI, this chart shows that S types (SJ and SP) are a out 73.5% of the overall population

    For women only, Ne doms are 11 % of the overall population (8% + 3%) as compared to 2% Ni doms (1.5% + .5%).

    Frequency of Personality Types by Population & Gender

    It doesn't make sense to me that one would develop a less common function than a more common function due to environmental influences unless that person had a very influential person in their life who used that relatively rare dominant function and valued it in others. Is that what you are getting at?
    You must not understand neglect. Neglect is traumatizing because it is being completely ignored and denied even when you are literally crying for help. Since children's brains cannot comprehend life yet, or reason well, they must compensate by switching their brains into other patterns and ways of being. Those with intelligence do best with this because they must have more access to more of their brain, and can hide within and amongst it.

    It is my developing theory that those who are neglected are more likely to go inward, especially at the young ages when they can do nothing else! This would bring about the nurturing of introverted functions, and what is the function most likely to introvert? The dominant function at play in the person/child. In my case, that was likely N. For others it could be S, T, or F.

    OTOH, those who suffer from abuse or over attachment, might be more likely to extravert their functions in some way. Creating an outlet for that exrta attention or energy coming their way which they cannot process. Again, I'm talking about this as a HEALTHY coping mechanism for unhealthy activities against a helpless human being. Those who do not have the brain capacity to develop alternative pathways for chronic or severe traumatic events, would somehow build it up and plot a way to get it out in the future. Therein lies your citizens who develop APD, etc. (but that is the topic on another thread).

    I'm thinking of all this process as a predominantly autonomous one. It is something that happens in the brain of the person independent of their desires or the desires of those around them. It is an untoward consequence of severe abuse or neglect. [Of course, a case could be made for the unusual and weird instances of intentional abuse or neglect causing a particular organic manifestation in the victim. But again, that is beyond the scope of this thread, and not what I am talking about.]



    Quote Originally Posted by cm81 View Post
    Would overt trauma in childhood really cause an entire shift in personality, or would it merely exaggerate the extreme complexities within that type?
    Yes, of course, it could. Both. I think you would have the underlying core person and personality, but overlying that would be alternative cognitive processes and beliefs and even separate personalities (in the case of severe dissociative disorders). It would take time and introspection to uncover those hidden parts of the person, locked deep within the brain. And mostly, soul.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  7. #7
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    You must not understand neglect. Neglect is traumatizing because it is being completely ignored and denied even when you are literally crying for help. Since children's brains cannot comprehend life yet, or reason well, they must compensate by switching their brains into other patterns and ways of being. Those with intelligence do best with this because they must have more access to more of their brain, and can hide within and amongst it.

    It is my developing theory that those who are neglected are more likely to go inward, especially at the young ages when they can do nothing else! This would bring about the nurturing of introverted functions, and what is the function most likely to introvert? The dominant function at play in the person/child. In my case, that was likely N. For others it could be S, T, or F.
    I'm not sure if it's right, with respect to cognitive functions per se but but this is an interesting theory. Extraverts (like ENFPs) have higher interaction needs as children and when they have two introverted parents for example will tend to feel neglected.

    Maybe it would be helpful to look at a very extreme example. - say the horrible things that happened in Romanian orphanages. There were definite impacts on how the "circuits" developed in the children that were neglected.

    Romanian orphans subjected to deprivation must now deal with dysfunction - The Washington Post

    The children in these institutions had:
    - incidences of lower IQ
    - higher incidence of ADHD
    - higher levels of anxiety
    - attachment disorders
    - problems in interpersonal relationships

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  8. #8
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    I don't have any comment on the theory, but as for the thread title, I know that feel. It's not as easy for me to type in MBTI, but the question isn't "who am I?". It's "which one?".

    The system is more static than enneagram in its descriptions, without much information on how types can change over time.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is an interesting theory. I have a different view. I think you'd have to separate enneagram from MBTI or cognitive function order systems first.

    For Enneagram, there is some interesting stuff posted here that implies parenting does influence type:

    Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs

    I'm not sure if it's true but it is plausible.
    Kinda off topic, it's plausible but I don't think it's true.

    Like, just look at the write up on the 7 from your link:

    Active child vs. Responsive parent
    This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 7

    The demands and concerns of the Active child are usually received with benevolence and a supportive, encouraging attitude. This creates a tolerant environment in which the child can express himself openly and receive attention without much effort from his part. The Active child becomes self-confident, carefree and expects his interactions to be positive and favorable to his needs. The Responsive parent is sympathetic and loving, thus stimulating the child's playful, self-expressive side and giving him a good deal of personal freedom.

    This childhood scenario promotes a cheerful, optimistic type who knows how to charm and manipulate others into easily getting his way. Entertaining and expressive, such a child may later expect instant gratification for all his needs and desires and avoid investing time and effort into long-term goals.
    That doesn't explain the development of a neurosis at all. It sounds like a normal, happy childhood and doesn't come close to explaining why 7s constantly feel that their needs will never be met or that they'll never be taken care of.

  10. #10
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Default The Night I Became an INTP?

    It occurred to me today as I was walking my dog that I am living a parallel life to my childhood, after my parent's divorce. As I walked through the park with my black dog (the dog of my childhood looked remarkably like my dog now, I just realized) in near solitude, the parallel could not be avoided. I think it came in light of the fact that I blogged about my childhood on my "Is AGA and INTP" thread yesterday. The other catalyst for this line of thinking is that I changed my signature before I took my dog for a walk. You can see I feel like I am (and cognitive function tests I have taken in the past have corroborated it), Ni/Ti/Fe/Ne. If you look at it and consider it, it's like I am an infj (Ni/Fe) morphed with an intp (Ti/Ne)... I did not start resuming the development of my Fe until college days, around the time I met my ex. But I don't even think he was married to the one who has my Christian name. I have never liked, or identified with, my Christian name.

    I had stated in that post that I did not remember my parents' fighting, but only remembered the night my mother left. If was a horrendous night that I do not like to think much about. But it occurred to me today as I was walking my black dog that maybe I was born that night...

    I know it sounds crazy and I am going to pray and plead with this forum to have kindness and love toward me here. I have been enamored with the idea that some of my attractions may have DID or DDNOS, even to the point of obsession, but I never really seriously considered I did. I know, and have accepted this past year that I have 'other sides' to me, even having other names and acknowledge that they exert control over me at various times in my life, but for some reason, actually considering that the one in control now was born, or brought into being, the night my mother left, is pretty profound and intense for me to consider.

    Of course, I am filled with doubt and denial. Dissociative identity disorder happens to people who have REALLY been abused, like physically or sexually. I have not (that I know of). I wonder if I have not just taken on other people's issues so much out of empathy or sympathy, that I think I have mulitple personalities too. I was neglected and my mother was harsh, that is all I know. Yet, in considering myself in this new light, I wonder if I just don't have access to those memories.? I did test INTP via the offical mbti test, and I did have an interview about it which made it all feel very legitimate and accurate. I do not have memories of childhood, only pictures. I hate the Christian name I was given. I have to go by it, but I have always disliked it. And when my intimates use it, I feel a mixture of annoyance and discomfort because they know that isn't me (or should?).

    My sister says I was always analyzing everything, which points to Ti, but this of course would be the 'me' that was in existence as an older child, after the night in question. She remembers stuff that I have no inkling of, and is 5 years older than me. I really draw a serious blank on my childhood before middle school. I can summon some memories of mom being in our house, but it is probably they are all memories of her visiting after she had actually moved out. Furthermore, I have always been attracted to guys much younger than me, like around 10 years, give or take. I cannot remember the exact date my mother left. It was either 2nd grade or 3rd grade. I would have been 7 to 9 years old, which is purportedly the age kids stop being able to dissociate into a new personality. I tried to research it but can't find it right now, but that might be only if they had not already dissociated.... Of course, if this is true, I could have even already formed other personalities before this. Sfp says being Fe is very difficult for children in traumatic environments.

    Again, I don't feel like my childhood was bad enough to warrant dissociation to the degree necessary to create new personalities in myself. Yet I can not ignore all the signs that point to that very possibility anymore. God is not telling me much about it all yet, except He did confirm when I had these insights before (described in my song of mary blog), and today when I asked Him about it, He said that it (that time period) was more than I could handle. This gives me further insight into dissociative disorders and other disorders: they are God's way of protecting us in our minds.


    Is this likely? Or not?

    Does anyone have any personal experience with this, or have it? I don't think it is shameful or should be kept a secret myself. I grew up in an environment where we had to keep secrets for my mom (who is seeing a married man), and I am loathe to ever live like that again. Also, up to 3% of the population have this, so it isn't that rare. It is more rare for me to be an infj than to have a real dissociative disorder.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com

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