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  1. #1
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    Default 4w5 so/sp or 5w4 so/sp?

    I've considered every single instinctual stacking, and so/sp was actually the last one I considered. I'm pretty confident that it's my type, though. I've tested most often as social-first, and I'm definitely sx-last; and I definitely relate to self-pres in a more abstract than literal way, which is apparently typical for your second variant.

    The main thing that makes me doubt 5: I don't know that I avoid emotional overwhelm. I am an emotional masochist, to some degree. As a kid, I'd intentionally make myself sad for the emotional release (...not much anymore, though). And I'm definitely a Jungian Feeler / Ethical type in Socionics.

    What makes me doubt 4: I don't come across at all like a 4 irl. A couple family members recently discovered enneagram and asked if I was a 5. I don't relate very strongly to social-4 descriptions (I do to sp-4). I used to have severe social anxiety, but it's not that I feel essentially inferior -- I don't have low self-esteem -- it's that I've always felt insecure in my ability to connect with other people. While I've never related to the Thinker archetype, the Observer fits extremely well. Participation is really hard for me; nothing feels more unnatural than opening up.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    Senior Member blahblahbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I've considered every single instinctual stacking, and so/sp was actually the last one I considered. I'm pretty confident that it's my type, though. I've tested most often as social-first, and I'm definitely sx-last; and I definitely relate to self-pres in a more abstract than literal way, which is apparently typical for your second variant.

    The main thing that makes me doubt 5: I don't know that I avoid emotional overwhelm. I am an emotional masochist, to some degree. As a kid, I'd intentionally make myself sad for the emotional release (...not much anymore, though). And I'm definitely a Jungian Feeler / Ethical type in Socionics.

    What makes me doubt 4: I don't come across at all like a 4 irl. A couple family members recently discovered enneagram and asked if I was a 5. I don't relate very strongly to social-4 descriptions (I do to sp-4). I used to have severe social anxiety, but it's not that I feel essentially inferior -- I don't have low self-esteem -- it's that I've always felt insecure in my ability to connect with other people. While I've never related to the Thinker archetype, the Observer fits extremely well. Participation is really hard for me; nothing feels more unnatural than opening up.

    What do you think?
    so is far less 5 than 4.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahblahbob View Post
    so is far less 5 than 4.
    what do you see as the key differences between an infp 5 and an infp 4?

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    @blahblahbob sorry, I misread your post as "so far, less 5 than 4" -- but I'm assuming you meant that the social instinct is far less 5 than 4. if that, then yeah, I know.

  5. #5
    Senior Member blahblahbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    what do you see as the key differences between an infp 5 and an infp 4?
    4 seems more SO
    5 seems more SP

    I'm not really sure as I'm no expert on the enneagram archetypes. I'm strongly curiosity driven and like learning new things so when 5w4 came up after taking a test it felt very very right. I don't feel like I relate to some of the ways the 4's think. When I was a little kid I would spend hours just taking apart old junky machines of different kinds and looking at how all the parts fit together. I started goofing around with BASIC programming at like 8.

    The one thing that made me sure "5" is right is that I've always been very very curious about things.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahblahbob View Post
    4 seems more SO
    5 seems more SP

    I'm not really sure as I'm no expert on the enneagram archetypes. I'm strongly curiosity driven and like learning new things so when 5w4 came up after taking a test it felt very very right. I don't feel like I relate to some of the ways the 4's think. When I was a little kid I would spend hours just taking apart old junky machines of different kinds and looking at how all the parts fit together. I started goofing around with BASIC programming at like 8.

    The one thing that made me sure "5" is right is that I've always been very very curious about things.
    I thought I was sp/so for a while... I've always been very very curious about people. thanks for your input.

  7. #7
    Senior Member blahblahbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I thought I was sp/so for a while... I've always been very very curious about people. thanks for your input.
    I've always felt like a freak: I was a choir boy in high school who loved literature and did extremely well at math and decently at science and never felt more useful than when someone felt like they needed a very non-judgmental shoulder to cry on and give them hugs. So I straddled the "right and left brain functions" really well.

  8. #8
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @decrescendo I'm a INFP 4w5 So/Sp and everything you've said is true of me.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #9
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    @Southern Kross So you don't relate much to social 4 descriptions either? I relate a lot to Oceanmoonshine's so/sp 4, except for the part about how they "tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging." Maybe I'm in denial, though.

  10. #10
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    @Southern Kross So you don't relate much to social 4 descriptions either? I relate a lot to Oceanmoonshine's so/sp 4, except for the part about how they "tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging." Maybe I'm in denial, though.
    I think instinctual variant descriptions tend to be a bit patchy in general. Even with the good ones, there's usually at least one or two things that people of that type would disagree with. You can get brilliant insights mixed in with rubbish. The oceanmoonshine ones are pretty good for the individual types. The "not quite belonging" thing is relatively important for Social 4s. It could be that the wording is just putting you off or maybe you're another type (like 4 Sp/So or some 5 stacking).

    Here's some other decent descriptions. Together they cover a lot of the different aspects:

    Type 4: The Romantic

    Social: Shame/Honor – The Critical Commentator

    Feelings of deficiency can be provoked by social situations, with envy directed toward other people’s status or appearance of belonging. This subtype seeks to establish an acceptable social role, possibly as the emotional truth-teller for the group, and often feels a need to resolve the tension between the quest for individual authenticity and social expectations.
    Style Four Subtypes

    Social (Shame):


    The shyest of the subtypes, Social Fours develop mechanisms to call negative attention to themselves. Feelings of shame arise from feeling unworthy. A passion for being “in,” wanting to be included, to receive favors, but feeling “I’m nothing,” “I’m ugly,” “I’m silly.” A sense of not meeting the standards others are capable of meeting. Shame disguised by image of “being above the common throng.”

    At best empathic, authentic, appreciative, help others see outside the box
    At worst too strong a desire to be with the "in crowd," too self-effacing, shy
    Social Fours:

    Nicknames: The social commentator, The critic, Designer architect, The refined person, The “Rebel with out a cause,” Alienated idealist, the Truth teller, Public roles that require critiquing, The animal rights activist, The quibbler, The ugly duckling that wants to be the swan and really learns that they are the swan, The social and alienated elitist.

    Social (Des. 1)- Social Fours are most characterized by a feeling of shame. They like to think of themselves as completely unique and one-of-a-kind, and can alternate between feeling socially inept and disdainful of others. They are somewhat more socially engaged than the other two variants of Fours, often by adopting "personas" of some sort that they know are idealized versions of themselves. They also identify with alternative groups that in one way or another reinforce their outsider status. However, they can be easily overwhelmed socially and withdraw for long periods of time. Unhealthy social fours are extremely self-conscious and can have trouble with even the most casual human encounters.

    Social (Des. 5): I can describe them this way: They're kind of like the outsiders who wished they fit in. Not the "F you" outsiders, but the "I wanna join but I'm not good enough" outsiders. They wished they possessed all the qualities of 'regular' people (which they feel they lack) so that they can do what they really want to do: participate in society. This is why they're kinda hard to notice, since they're usually innocuous and not all that attention-seeking. To acquaintances they're pretty friendly and generally try to please, but they can get kinda holier-than-thou and reactive with people they know well, esp. when it has something to do with how they are perceived by others. If you challenge their image of themselves they just FLIP OUT royally and will have a hell of a time trusting you. They are VERY aware of social norms and deliberately try to 'stand out' and kinda "wait around" for someone to notice them. They're not very likely to do stuff to get 'any' kind of attention, just 'worthy' attention. Like they're not going to start a fit to get ANYONE's sympathy, they usually direct their acting towards certain individuals/groups. To others they just try their best to act normal so that no one notices that they're not.
    Social Fours: "Shame"
    Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

    • I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
    • I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
    • I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
    • I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
    • I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
    • I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
    • Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
    • I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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