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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixie View Post
    I've told you before that ISFP 4w5 sounds like you, but after reading this, INFP 9w8 is just as good. Not as much S with 9w8 or N with 4w5. The contrast between intuitive and grounded in each of those types is key. You sound like the other 4s who are sx doms here. Sx is clear...
    Sx is NOT clear, because the individual described in the OP considers a relationship to be optional

    "Yes, but only if my needs for intimacy and excitement are being fed. This is as dependent on me as it is on my partner though. I prefer to be in a relationship ... or even single and at least a little bit interested in someone. I don't NEED anyone, I am self-sufficient and find myself good company"

    Type 9 IS clear, because of statements like this:

    "I very much fear that I am dull and bland and boring, that I have faded into the woodwork, that people will forget I exist, that I don't count,"
    and this,
    "I wish I was better at managing my time and avoiding procrastination"
    "Having an idea or an activity to focus on so deeply that I go into a state of flow"

    Type 9w8 IS clear, because of statements such as this:

    "I have unresolved anger issues. I used to be a placid kid for the most part but with rare episodes of blinding, nauseating rage. I guess I'm still the same way. I fantasize about punching someone in the mouth at least once a week"

    ISFP IS clear, because of statements such as this:
    "Reading (especially fiction), new languages, graphic design, painting, listening to music obviously, tarot and astrology, cooking, internet, typology, spending time with my loved ones, beach, just being out in quiet, green places

    The main type, wing, and mbti are quite clear. Instinctual stacking may start with So or Sp, but definitely NOT Sx.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”
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  2. #32
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Sx is NOT clear, because the individual described in the OP considers a relationship to be optional

    "Yes, but only if my needs for intimacy and excitement are being fed. This is as dependent on me as it is on my partner though. I prefer to be in a relationship ... or even single and at least a little bit interested in someone. I don't NEED anyone, I am self-sufficient and find myself good company"
    I'll get back to the rest later but I do want to admit that I threw in the "I DON'T NEED ANYONE" bit in a fit of pique when I was answering that question ... I actually deal quite poorly with singledom and spend a lot of time fantasizing about my perfect mate and obsessing over the lack thereof ... I am trying to train myself to be content with just my own company because it's supposed to be healthier but it's an uphill battle. I do like my own company and distracted mates make me feel terrible but at the same time, being alone makes me feel like I'm missing something vital and it eats at me.

    There's a description somewhere about how 4's fantasize about finding The One and how they will miraculously become sane, happy, contented people who lack for nothing when they do ... and that is exactly me. I think that's one of the reasons why I started considering 4 in the first place.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    I'll get back to the rest later but I do want to admit that I threw in the "I DON'T NEED ANYONE" bit in a fit of pique when I was answering that question ... I actually deal quite poorly with singledom and spend a lot of time fantasizing about my perfect mate and obsessing over the lack thereof ... I am trying to train myself to be content with just my own company because it's supposed to be healthier but it's an uphill battle. I do like my own company and distracted mates make me feel terrible but at the same time, being alone makes me feel like I'm missing something vital and it eats at me.

    There's a description somewhere about how 4's fantasize about finding The One and how they will miraculously become sane, happy, contented people who lack for nothing when they do ... and that is exactly me. I think that's one of the reasons why I started considering 4 in the first place.
    I was not talking about type 9 in the part you quoted, I was talking Sx versus Sp or So. Sp is a self-sufficient type, So is a 'people person,' Sx is a one-on-one relationship type. But that's not how the instinctual theory started. Sx, in its origin, is an intensity type. This is the instinct that puts out too much energy, more than is appropriate for a situation.

    As far as 4 versus 9, stick with your first choice. In my 3 1/2 year stay on this forum I have seen more than my share of posters who second-guessed themselves and then decided their first type choice was correct. And anyway, nothing you wrote in the OP indicates a type 4 in any way, shape, or form. The only question now is instinctual, and Sx ain't it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”
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  4. #34
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Someone else's type isn't something I want to argue about, so instead I'll come clean on my method for you to weigh the credibility of, @Arcana. When I estimate a type for someone, I'm largely comparing the OP to what I know about other people of the possible types for OP who have been consistently sure of their type for a long time and have shown themselves to be clear and well-read thinkers. It's not technical, and I know where it could conceivably go wrong. If someone makes a sharper-defined case for something else in the end that resonates better with OP, they've done a good thing.

    Point, though, about something of the 4 that is missing from your answers...how do you relate to the core 4 issue of losing sight of Holy Origin, which comes out in 4 as feeling like one is somehow made of different stuff from other people from a young age, for instance from one's family? Any type has to let go of that core notion to grow past a certain point, but for all the pain it may have caused, there's a will to hold onto it, too, since it's also the premise one's whole sense of life story hinges on. That it isn't true would mean that nothing was what it felt like it was, a hell of a thing to process. Compare 9's relationship with Holy Love, too.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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  5. #35
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Your questionnaire distinctly emphasizes a Decisive Type ( and ) rather than a Judicious Type ( and ).

    I noticed a general trend of - seeking in your answers, which could mean that is in your Super-Id, yet I am hesitant about that conclusion.

    I would pay particular interest to, in the Beta and Gamma quadras:
    ESI, IEI, ILI, EIE.


    You are probably not:
    LIE, LSI, SLE, ILE, LII, ESE, SEI, SLI, LSE, EII, IEE.

    Do Note:
    ESI and IEI constitute a relation of social request (beneficiary-benefactor). Social Request is often infamous for causing mistypes, with benefactor types (ESI) believing they are their own beneficiary (IEI), so it might be wise to take a look at ESI as a strong possibility. You did, in your writing, come across as more Gamma than Beta. This is also why you should consider ILI, so focus on ESI, IEI, and ILI mainly, with just a nod of attention at EIE.
    I've tentatively typed as an Fi base in socionics for a while though I haven't made a binding decision on Ne vs. Se creative. The EII and ESI descriptions don't sound like they're written about real people. The EII is portrayed as a saintly, eternally accepting and open minded doormat and ESI as a humorless harpy with OCD and possibly a bull whip, and while I love some negativity in descriptions, neither of those is totally me. The IM breakdown is a bit better ... I would say ESI wins out by a slight margin but I do identify a little more with delta values (per the descriptions online anyway). Maybe this is partly because I grew up with an LSE single mother and have a predominantly delta family but it could also just be me. I do think I'm serious rather than merry but gamma descriptions sound way too harsh and cutting for my tastes. I don't know if this is because they were written by a bunch of alphas (I've noticed that alpha NTs tend to see me as Fe PoLR ... possibly because I vibe as a cold and unenthusiastic killjoy to them.)

    I first self-typed as IEI when I first encountered socionics and I liked those profiles a lot but I barely identify with beta values. I don't believe in the use of violence and force as a lifestyle or primary line of defense, I don't think might makes right, and I disapprove heartily of strong man worship, which might superficially point towards devalued Se? The beta emphasis on hierarchies, everyone knowing their place in the pecking order, and unwavering unity in belief is alien and a little frightening to me. I do like the drive towards intensity and excitement and gaining and keeping that edge though, and amping up emotional intensity is a good way to deal with problems in relationships, IMO.

    This is the first I've heard of the social benefit mistypes so I will keep an eye out for that because ESI, IEI and SLI have all been suggested as possibilities for me.

    I've also been meaning to ask: what do you think of Gulenko's cognitive styles? I've tried reading the descriptions and they seem like an incomprehensible mess to me but some people seem to think very highly of them and I'm beginning to wonder what they have that I don't.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    I've tentatively typed as an Fi base in socionics for a while though I haven't made a binding decision on Ne vs. Se creative. The EII and ESI descriptions don't sound like they're written about real people. The EII is portrayed as a saintly, eternally accepting and open minded doormat and ESI as a humorless harpy with OCD and possibly a bull whip, and while I love some negativity in descriptions, neither of those is totally me. The IM breakdown is a bit better ... I would say ESI wins out by a slight margin but I do identify a little more with delta values (per the descriptions online anyway). Maybe this is partly because I grew up with an LSE single mother and have a predominantly delta family but it could also just be me. I do think I'm serious rather than merry but gamma descriptions sound way too harsh and cutting for my tastes. I don't know if this is because they were written by a bunch of alphas (I've noticed that alpha NTs tend to see me as Fe PoLR ... possibly because I vibe as a cold and unenthusiastic killjoy to them.)

    I first self-typed as IEI when I first encountered socionics and I liked those profiles a lot but I barely identify with beta values. I don't believe in the use of violence and force as a lifestyle or primary line of defense, I don't think might makes right, and I disapprove heartily of strong man worship, which might superficially point towards devalued Se? The beta emphasis on hierarchies, everyone knowing their place in the pecking order, and unwavering unity in belief is alien and a little frightening to me. I do like the drive towards intensity and excitement and gaining and keeping that edge though, and amping up emotional intensity is a good way to deal with problems in relationships, IMO.

    This is the first I've heard of the social benefit mistypes so I will keep an eye out for that because ESI, IEI and SLI have all been suggested as possibilities for me.

    I've also been meaning to ask: what do you think of Gulenko's cognitive styles? I've tried reading the descriptions and they seem like an incomprehensible mess to me but some people seem to think very highly of them and I'm beginning to wonder what they have that I don't.
    Gulenko's Cognitive Styles are mostly an incomprehensible mess, but they can be intriguing and even applicable. I probably wouldn't rely on them unless you are very well versed in the three Reinen dichotomies that comprise it (Positivist-Negativist, Static-Dynamic, and Process-Result), and even then it is still somewhat disconnected from reality.

    Also, the descriptors of any sociotype are generally misleading, especially considering the EII descriptor against the EII's celebrity type name,Dostoevsky. ESI's also suffer from being the conflicting type of the main backbone of Socionics's literature, ILEs, meaning that not only ESI's descriptions suffer as a whole, but Gamma descriptions as well since they are in the orthogonal quadra.

    If you want a look at a well-portrayed ESI, the character Will Graham on the show Hannibal is an excellent example of how the ESI descriptors are misleading and misguided, to the point where many have mistyped the character due to his intellectual prowess.
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  7. #37
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Geez, enough of all of this official stuff. Let's get down to what really matters.

    Which Lord of the Rings characters do you most identify with?
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  8. #38
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Then how do you account for the 9w8?
    Are you referring to this:

    "9 What makes you feel secure?
    Undiluted and mutual love, admiration, lust [EIGHT] and worship of a soulmate[NINE]. Genuinely being able to depend on a partner for physical and emotional support while being able to offer them the exact same thing[NINE]. Having an idea or an activity to focus on so deeply that I go into a state of flow (could be anything, just has to grip me hard enough)[NINE]. Money, enough to enjoy life, not enough to ruffle other people's feathers. The awareness that I am competent and can do something well[EIGHT]. Kindness."

    9w8.
    I don't really account for it because I think you're misattributing it to the eight wing when it's the sx instinct. That could be a 9w8 for someone else however it's inconsistent with everything else Arcana's written on the forum (and her behaviour on the forum). She's not uncomfortable with conflict, has a good amount of energy and seems comfortable drawing attention to herself (nines prefer to downplay all of these).

    For example:

    Undiluted and mutual love, admiration, lust [EIGHT] and worship of a soulmate[NINE].
    Sx-dom.

    Genuinely being able to depend on a partner for physical and emotional support while being able to offer them the exact same thing[NINE].
    Too general to type (could apply to any type).

    Having an idea or an activity to focus on so deeply that I go into a state of flow (could be anything, just has to grip me hard enough)[NINE].
    She goes on to add:

    actually, no, this is not it, exactly. I have a hard time getting attached to things because little consumes my interest to the extent I can forget myself ... so when something does, I cling on to it for dear life.

    Which indicates that she wants an idea to cling onto. On the contrary, it's very easy for nines to attach onto something because they fear they have no identity.


    Money, enough to enjoy life, not enough to ruffle other people's feathers. The awareness that I am competent and can do something well[EIGHT]
    That could be Se and Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Enneagram type 9w8 description

    The traits of the Nine and those of the Eight conflict with each other: Nines are passive and desire harmony with others, while Eights are aggressive, asserting themselves and following their self-interest. Since Nine is the basic personality type, people of this subtype tend to be fundamentally oriented to others, receptive, unself-conscious, agreeable, and so forth, while some part of them asserts itself strongly, at least at times. There is a "mellow," out-going quality about them.

    So you see, @Deceptive, talking about the type 9 alone is not good enough when describing real people and not just types. You need to look at the whole picture.
    Haha, I was going to say the same to you however I notice we're typing her differently. You're focusing wholly on the questionnaire, I'm taking into account other comments on the forum since I'm looking out for a pattern in her character to get more information. Despite that, typing her as a 9w8 still means she has average level e9 traits of going with the flow and not asserting her needs. I've seen behaviour that contradicts this, she's stood for her ideals confidently even though it was against the consensus. An average e9 is not prone to this behaviour, they'll avoid the disharmony altogether. Furthermore, a lot of what that 'article' emphasises the 9w8 in their healthy states not the average state which is no different to the 9w1 or 9dw.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Sx is NOT clear, because the individual described in the OP considers a relationship to be optional

    "Yes, but only if my needs for intimacy and excitement are being fed. This is as dependent on me as it is on my partner though. I prefer to be in a relationship ... or even single and at least a little bit interested in someone. I don't NEED anyone, I am self-sufficient and find myself good company"
    I read this as sp-secondary and sx-primary because she focuses on lack of satisfaction in intimacy (sx). Sp/sx do not stress over this (they yield sx skilfully) they concerned about lack of physical resources (food, money, health etc). Note how she says she's self-sufficient? That's indicates ease with the sp instinct.


    "I very much fear that I am dull and bland and boring, that I have faded into the woodwork, that people will forget I exist, that I don't count,"
    and this,
    No, this is classically e4 since e9 worry that they're not loved. Not how she says "dull, bland, boring"? Nines are more focused on being acceptance regardless of image. They don't so much fear being viewed as uninteresting as they do fear being unloveable.

    "I wish I was better at managing my time and avoiding procrastination"
    So everyone in university is a e9?

    "Having an idea or an activity to focus on so deeply that I go into a state of flow"
    Again, it's something she desires but can't find. Nines are the opposite of this.

    Type 9w8 IS clear, because of statements such as this:

    "I have unresolved anger issues. I used to be a placid kid for the most part but with rare episodes of blinding, nauseating rage. I guess I'm still the same way. I fantasize about punching someone in the mouth at least once a week"
    It's quite possible that her gut type is 9w8 but it's definitely not her core type. She's aware of her anger, nines are unaware of their anger, even 9w8.

    ISFP IS clear, because of statements such as this:
    "Reading (especially fiction), new languages, graphic design, painting, listening to music obviously, tarot and astrology, cooking, internet, typology, spending time with my loved ones, beach, just being out in quiet, green places
    I don't disagree that she's ISFP but I wouldn't type her based on her hobbies. I'd type her on how she experiences those hobbies.
    Last edited by Wixiw; 12-22-2014 at 01:43 AM. Reason: ETA
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  9. #39
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixie View Post
    Someone else's type isn't something I want to argue about, so instead I'll come clean on my method for you to weigh the credibility of, @Arcana. When I estimate a type for someone, I'm largely comparing the OP to what I know about other people of the possible types for OP who have been consistently sure of their type for a long time and have shown themselves to be clear and well-read thinkers. It's not technical, and I know where it could conceivably go wrong. If someone makes a sharper-defined case for something else in the end that resonates better with OP, they've done a good thing.

    Point, though, about something of the 4 that is missing from your answers...how do you relate to the core 4 issue of losing sight of Holy Origin, which comes out in 4 as feeling like one is somehow made of different stuff from other people from a young age, for instance from one's family? Any type has to let go of that core notion to grow past a certain point, but for all the pain it may have caused, there's a will to hold onto it, too, since it's also the premise one's whole sense of life story hinges on. That it isn't true would mean that nothing was what it felt like it was, a hell of a thing to process. Compare 9's relationship with Holy Love, too.
    That seems a good way to type someone. I'm not particularly interested in "technical" typings but personal, human opinions.

    Regarding the core 4 issue of losing sight of Holy Origin ... uh. I guess it's story time? Text wall, ahoy!


    When my parents got married, my dad's family didn't approve of my mom. They didn't like her and they thought my dad was making a huge mistake by remarrying (he'd been married and had a daughter with his first wife, whom he then divorced and then she died of cancer). It's partly because they don't like outsiders (they've been hostile to all my dad's wives, anyway) and partly because my half sister disliked my mom because she didn't want my dad to marry her. The rest of the family sided with her, egging my dad to pick sides between his child and his new wife.

    Then my mom had me ... and because I was an extension of her, they didn't really care much for me either. In fact, I was a useful pawn for them to make my mom miserable. I was a quiet kid and didn't like to talk in front of people so they would call me dumb, told my mom I was "pretty but it's a pity she's so stupid ... has she even learned to talk yet?" and stuff like that. I don't remember it well, to be honest, but I have heard stories ... anyway, that's the background.

    Moving on, I have a cousin my age and at the time (ages 3-6), she was my best friend and we were inseparable and would do everything together. Around Christmas, we were invited to a party at an aunt's house. I remember my mom putting me in this blue velvet frock with lace that I really loved and I felt really happy about wearing it and getting to play with my cousin all evening and it was a lot of fun. We ate dinner and it was then time to exchange gifts. Everyone started cooing over my cousin and how pretty and smart and funny she was and they got out a whole bunch of presents, including this huge box and inside it was the most beautiful doll I'd ever seen and it was all for her. And it went on for a while, with the various other kids, and I guess I'd been patiently waiting my turn but I eventually realized that it wasn't going to come at all. They'd cut me out of the whole thing altogether. I burst into tears and sobbed inconsolably for a long time and no one other than my mom made any real attempt to console me. I remember one aunt's expression: she said something like "There there" with this big smug fake smile on her face that made me feel sick.

    This is the first genuine memory I have of emotional pain. After my mom took me from the room and comforted me, I sat down, looked over the whole evening and decided two things ... first, that there was something about me that was different and that people didn't like me for it, who even wanted to hurt me for it; and second, that I was under no obligation at all to like or respect cruel people, whether or not they were family. I remember the moment, too, and the cold feeling of clarity I felt settling over me. I dried my eyes, hugged my mom and we went home afterwards.

    I don't want to say that this is the moment I became a 4 or anything like that but it was a formative moment for sure. Even later, when I came to know the family history a little better and understand that their treatment of me wasn't motivated by anything intrinsic to me as such, the feeling of difference has never left me. I've also had a lot of positive reinforcement regarding that feeling; my mom's family, my teachers and my friends' parents would call me eccentric, original, independent and different, things like that ... and on the one hand, I'd wonder what it was about me that put me at a distance from the vast seas of normality and on the other, I also recognized that there were a lot of things inside me and my mind that WERE different and that people would never understand.

    I don't know about Holy Love. I'm very particular about whom I love and care for because many people are unworthy of those things, and I have no regard, nor have I since I was very young, for the opinions of those I dislike. There were kids who tried to bully me in school but I'd already toughened up in that regard so after a couple of futile attempts to bait me into reacting, they pretty much left me alone. And I was proud of it.
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  10. #40
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    I'm not gonna attract Mal or Deceptive's attention to this post because I don't wanna deal with responding to people. I'm going to summon @Starry to this thread because there's a lot of (reasonable) misconceptions about E9s flying around and she's the one who helped me realize what E9s actually got going on.

    E9s fear loss and separation not because "omg they love their friends so much and they don't wanna cause conflict!!! <3" but because they have a lack of personal identity. E9s, like E3s and E6s, can also present themselves in a clusterfuck of ways because, being an attachment type, they fear separation from that which provides the identity. E9 often surrounds itself with certain people and will draw their identity from there, which is why E9s are often portrayed as people who fear the separation from their loved ones. It's not because of just the fact that losing loved ones is painful, it's that without them their identity is at a loss. But still there are special E9s who draw their identity from elsewhere. For Elfboy (I'm not summoning him to the thread because he'll contest me and Starry on believing he's 9w8 with a really strong connection to 3) who's always been more of a lone wolf, he's attached himself to an image to provide the identity. The image is some sort of an E7ish, "prince-like", entitled/bratty, outgoing, and energetic persona that he SAYS is there. I'm not saying you are E9 for sure, but at least understand where I'm coming from with this knowledge and then read this quote of yours stood out to me the most:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    I very much fear that I am dull and bland and boring, that I have faded into the woodwork, that people will forget I exist, that I don't count, I have nothing new and different and exciting to offer, why would anyone want to be with me?

    So when I find something or someone that truly captures my interests and welcomes me in return ... I get swayed too easily, over-involved with things and people I care about and any small misfortune or slight in those areas becomes a source of huge anxiety and pain ... I used to think I did an excellent job of hiding it but have come to realize that my mask isn't as opaque as I thought it was.
    Do you see how I could get 9 sx/sp from this? Okay honestly I've been too E7 to read anything else you've posted after the original thread haha but I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Starry might also be able to help or add onto what I'm saying about E9s if she's willing.

    Also, if you are a 4 you ain't no 4w5. 4s don't desire "being the most interesting/unique" or fear being dull or bland. This can be a quality 4s exude, but that comes from the influence of its 3 wing. 3s want to impress and they want their qualities to stand out - they're very good at marketing themselves in that sense. You also are so much more engaging and enthusiastic than 4w5 who is pretty much entirely reclusive. I also really don't see any 5 tendencies in you at all. The fact that you love the limelight for a decent amount of time and unapologetically grab people's attention when you choose to says you're at least a 4w3 rather than a 4w5.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so

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