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Mona is unsure

hjgbujhghg

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I've been changing my type for a past days, 'till this time it was basically only ENFP vs. INFP and 7w6 vs. 4w3, but lately I started to doubt my Ne+Fi usage and considered using different cognitive functions. I answered a socionics questionnaire, if you want to contribute I'd be glad. I decided not to answer a full questionnaire, you know me anyway so it's more additional info.

Personal concepts
1. What is beauty? What is love? Both are highly subjective and their perception as much as their idea depend just on a person. I don't believe there's a general definition of love, or beauty and I don't think such a definition could ever be accurate. My view of beauty is something unordinary, original, something that doesn't afraid to stand out and yet comes out as artistic. It doesn't necessarily have to be aesthetic, it doesn't have to seem perfect, the artistry value in creation of independence is enough for the beauty appreciation. Love is the feeling of being complete, the feeling of being one with the self and the object of a desire. It doesn't have to be person, it can be song, painting. The feeling that the object is touching you internally and you feel strong connection and affection towards the object. Maybe it doesn't even have to be real, the idea of love can be stronger than love itself.. I could fall in love with the idea, I actually I think I am in love with the idea, however falling back to this space and its rules hurts.
2. What are your most important values? I have a very firm and confident idea about what I want to do with my life and what are my inner set goals, so staying true to them and making sure I'll accomplish them is very important for me. I value being independent intellectually and emotionally, I value originality and novelty, creativity and fantasy, honesty and good intellect. Compassion and help.
3. Do you have any sort of spiritual/religious beliefs, and why do you hold (or don't) those beliefs in the first place? I've studied religions and spiritual beliefs, but none of them really capture with my idea of reality, so it's hard for me to accept them. I see a lot of generalized spiritual, or religious beliefs as nonsense and usually am critical about their irrationality. I have my own idea, of how things work... I don't believe in god as a being, but I believe in God as a sort of energy that is in all of us and in the whole universe connects people and things and creates harmony. I believe that such an energy could work on very similar princip as electro-magnetism. I don't believe in good, or bad, heaven, or hell. I see morality as flexible and very relative.
4. Opinion on war and militaries? What is power to you? Power seeking comes out from human's ego, the ego is aware of its existence, the ego itself is not enough for a human, therefore the ego desires to posses something. It depends on a person himself whether he desires an abstract knowledge, or one million dollars. I see power seeking as human weakness and see the real growth in unity, compassion and sharing. Even the idea of states goes against me. However I don't want to see things as black and white and say war is just a natural part of human existence as the existence of the ego. Wars can bring novelty, change and technical prosperity.

Interests
5. What have you had long conversations about? What are your interests? Why? Art, psychology, philosophy, politics, music, fashion. I value art as the expression of individuality and creativity. I like to elaborate on different possible meanings of the art. I like psychology, because I'd like to understand people's nature better and also because it gives me an interesting concept and system I can play with and study. I like philosophy, because it often answers my questions about the world, while it gives me chance to create my own idea about how I see the world and its meaning. I like politics as a simple human system, politics create for me just a system of ideas I can elaborate on and analyse them. I am also looking for a system of politics to relate to and to spot my own ideas in the system which I study. Music is pure aesthetic experience for me, that I often like to share with others at concerts, or during the talks. Fashion is something I value because of its social effects on people and as a tool of self expression.
6. Interested in health/medicine as a conversation topic? Are you focused on your body? I am not very concerned about my body, however I like alternative approaches such as vegetarian diet. I like to read articles about what foods, or what exercise are good for human's body and usually enjoy gaining such a knowledge, but usually really fail when it comes to its particular implementation.
7. What do you think of daily chores? I sometimes do make "to do lists" but I usually end up doing things according to how I feel about doing them at very particular moment. Daily chores are not my strong side, I always do them at the last possible time. Sometimes I like to do them only because they are kind of good for daydream. I can get into daydream before even starting them :D .
8. Books or films you liked? Recently read/watched or otherwise. Examples welcome. I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. A novel about english magicians in 19th century. I can't remember the last movie, but I am a TV show addict! I like Hannibal, American Horror Story, Salem, Penny Dreadful, Under The Dome, Vikings, South Park...
9. What has made you cry? What has made you smile? Why? I cry when I feel misunderstood by other people.
I smile when I am in a good company.
10. Where do you feel: at one with the environment/a sense of belonging? I don't believe a particular place like this exists? Maybe my own room?
 

HongDou

navigating
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I think ENFP from this. I could analyze it all but being at school makes me lazy online. :(

I think 4w3 and 7w6 are both definitely in your tritype, but your major focus on identity, self-expression, how others perceive you, etc feels more heart-typey to me which makes me inclined to say 4w3. Pursuing happiness and wanting to feel fulfilled doesn't seem as emphasized here, but maybe if you talked about your personal goals if you were comfortable sharing might give us a better picture. :yes:
 

hjgbujhghg

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I think ENFP from this. I could analyze it all but being at school makes me lazy online. :(

I think 4w3 and 7w6 are both definitely in your tritype, but your major focus on identity, self-expression, how others perceive you, etc feels more heart-typey to me which makes me inclined to say 4w3. Pursuing happiness and wanting to feel fulfilled doesn't seem as emphasized here, but maybe if you talked about your personal goals if you were comfortable sharing might give us a better picture. :yes:

My personal goal is to be recognized publicly for my work. To reach a certain level of public affirmation of my persona and my expression. I like to express myself artistically, so being successful as an artist is my highest desire, however I have a back up plan. I study journalism and being recognized as a good journalist, or media worker, while I could bring my own insights to people, would be also very fulfilling.
 

HongDou

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My personal goal is to be recognized publicly for my work. To reach a certain level of public affirmation of my persona and my expression. I like to express myself artistically, so being successful as an artist is my highest desire, however I have a back up plan. I study journalism and being recognized as a good journalist, or media worker, while I could bring my own insights to people, would be also very fulfilling.

Have you considered 3w4? :thinking: Just a thought.
 

hjgbujhghg

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Have you considered 3w4? :thinking: Just a thought.

Yes, I did. However what made me pretty sure I am not a 3 is the fact, that they first work and then deal with their emotions, while I do the exact opposite. They are more goal, than feeling oriented, while when I feel bad, or sad, I can't do anything. I can't overcome my emotions and just start to work like 3 does. Also I am not by far hardworking, I am more nihilistic.
 

Avocado

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I've been changing my type for a past days, 'till this time it was basically only ENFP vs. INFP and 7w6 vs. 4w3, but lately I started to doubt my Ne+Fi usage and considered using different cognitive functions. I answered a socionics questionnaire, if you want to contribute I'd be glad. I decided not to answer a full questionnaire, you know me anyway so it's more additional info.

Personal concepts
1. What is beauty? What is love? Both are highly subjective and their perception as much as their idea depend just on a person. I don't believe there's a general definition of love, or beauty and I don't think such a definition could ever be accurate. My view of beauty is something unordinary, original, something that doesn't afraid to stand out and yet comes out as artistic. It doesn't necessarily have to be aesthetic, it doesn't have to seem perfect, the artistry value in creation of independence is enough for the beauty appreciation. Love is the feeling of being complete, the feeling of being one with the self and the object of a desire. It doesn't have to be person, it can be song, painting. The feeling that the object is touching you internally and you feel strong connection and affection towards the object. Maybe it doesn't even have to be real, the idea of love can be stronger than love itself.. I could fall in love with the idea, I actually I think I am in love with the idea, however falling back to this space and its rules hurts.
2. What are your most important values? I have a very firm and confident idea about what I want to do with my life and what are my inner set goals, so staying true to them and making sure I'll accomplish them is very important for me. I value being independent intellectually and emotionally, I value originality and novelty, creativity and fantasy, honesty and good intellect. Compassion and help.
3. Do you have any sort of spiritual/religious beliefs, and why do you hold (or don't) those beliefs in the first place? I've studied religions and spiritual beliefs, but none of them really capture with my idea of reality, so it's hard for me to accept them. I see a lot of generalized spiritual, or religious beliefs as nonsense and usually am critical about their irrationality. I have my own idea, of how things work... I don't believe in god as a being, but I believe in God as a sort of energy that is in all of us and in the whole universe connects people and things and creates harmony. I believe that such an energy could work on very similar princip as electro-magnetism. I don't believe in good, or bad, heaven, or hell. I see morality as flexible and very relative.
4. Opinion on war and militaries? What is power to you? Power seeking comes out from human's ego, the ego is aware of its existence, the ego itself is not enough for a human, therefore the ego desires to posses something. It depends on a person himself whether he desires an abstract knowledge, or one million dollars. I see power seeking as human weakness and see the real growth in unity, compassion and sharing. Even the idea of states goes against me. However I don't want to see things as black and white and say war is just a natural part of human existence as the existence of the ego. Wars can bring novelty, change and technical prosperity.

Interests
5. What have you had long conversations about? What are your interests? Why? Art, psychology, philosophy, politics, music, fashion. I value art as the expression of individuality and creativity. I like to elaborate on different possible meanings of the art. I like psychology, because I'd like to understand people's nature better and also because it gives me an interesting concept and system I can play with and study. I like philosophy, because it often answers my questions about the world, while it gives me chance to create my own idea about how I see the world and its meaning. I like politics as a simple human system, politics create for me just a system of ideas I can elaborate on and analyse them. I am also looking for a system of politics to relate to and to spot my own ideas in the system which I study. Music is pure aesthetic experience for me, that I often like to share with others at concerts, or during the talks. Fashion is something I value because of its social effects on people and as a tool of self expression.
6. Interested in health/medicine as a conversation topic? Are you focused on your body? I am not very concerned about my body, however I like alternative approaches such as vegetarian diet. I like to read articles about what foods, or what exercise are good for human's body and usually enjoy gaining such a knowledge, but usually really fail when it comes to its particular implementation.
7. What do you think of daily chores? I sometimes do make "to do lists" but I usually end up doing things according to how I feel about doing them at very particular moment. Daily chores are not my strong side, I always do them at the last possible time. Sometimes I like to do them only because they are kind of good for daydream. I can get into daydream before even starting them :D .
8. Books or films you liked? Recently read/watched or otherwise. Examples welcome. I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. A novel about english magicians in 19th century. I can't remember the last movie, but I am a TV show addict! I like Hannibal, American Horror Story, Salem, Penny Dreadful, Under The Dome, Vikings, South Park...
9. What has made you cry? What has made you smile? Why? I cry when I feel misunderstood by other people.
I smile when I am in a good company.
10. Where do you feel: at one with the environment/a sense of belonging? I don't believe a particular place like this exists? Maybe my own room?

I feel lost and out of touch with what I really want.

Otherwise, I am about the same as you.
 

EJCC

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Based on this I think INFP 4. More 4 than 7.
 

INTP

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Interesting :) . But hmmm, i dunno what to say based on what you said, but you strike to me more of NFP than NFJ, but im better at typing people when i can see their expressions, reactions etc. than just from how they describe themselves.
 

hjgbujhghg

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[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] can you please explain why you think I am rather introvert, than extrovert please? Do you think 4w3, or 4w5?
[MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] I know, that people's own description of themselves can be fairly inaccurate. I typed myself INFJ, because I really related to Jung's description of Ni, but I don't really relate to MBTI description of INJ. Then also Ni and Fi seem very alike.
 

EJCC

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EJCC can you please explain why you think I am rather introvert, than extrovert please?
I see a whole lot more Fi in your OP, than Ne. Going by the (questionable but often useful) definitions of extroverts "thinking as they speak" vs. introverts "thinking before they speak", you seem very calculated and therefore introverted. Seems like the Fi type of calculation, making sure what you say is as accurate an expression of your values as you can muster. In contrast I've seen ENFPs fudge that a bit and then have to correct themselves later.

On the other hand, could be that you're a 4 -- that exactness, I mean. For example [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION], ENFP 4, doesn't really vibe like an extrovert online, but he's said that he's super extroverted IRL so I take his word for it. Plus -- thinking out loud here -- I vibe "softer" here than I do on Vent, in the Modbox, or IRL, because the pace of conversation is so slow. Not as much opportunity for my Te to show its head.

Do you think 4w3, or 4w5?
You generally vibe 4w3, as do your avatars.
 

hjgbujhghg

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I see a whole lot more Fi in your OP, than Ne. Going by the (questionable but often useful) definitions of extroverts "thinking as they speak" vs. introverts "thinking before they speak", you seem very calculated and therefore introverted. Seems like the Fi type of calculation, making sure what you say is as accurate an expression of your values as you can muster. In contrast I've seen ENFPs fudge that a bit and then have to correct themselves later.

On the other hand, could be that you're a 4 -- that exactness, I mean. For example [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION], ENFP 4, doesn't really vibe like an extrovert online, but he's said that he's super extroverted IRL so I take his word for it. Plus -- thinking out loud here -- I vibe "softer" here than I do on Vent, in the Modbox, or IRL, because the pace of conversation is so slow. Not as much opportunity for my Te to show its head.


You generally vibe 4w3, as do your avatars.

The problem with forum communication is how slow it really is. I am not a prototype of extrovert irl, but I think I speak before I think. I am pretty reactive on external stimuli.
 

Qlip

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Analysis and detailing exhaust me. All I can say is that to me you feel very much like a younger version of a 4w3 that I know. Remember that young ENFPs can tend to seem introverted at times, mostly because of adjusting to all of the social pressure and expectations, and adjusting to ourselves within changing environments. And also remember that 4's will not seem extraverted next to 7's, the most visible ENFPs.

You seem to have the ENFP balance of needing time to think and needing time to revel. Your thoughts tend to be explorations and not expressions of something formed, INFPs tend to do it the other way.
 

INTP

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The problem with forum communication is how slow it really is.

Then you need to figure a way to communicate with forum people outside of the forum for faster communication :yes:


I am not a prototype of extrovert irl, but I think I speak before I think. I am pretty reactive on external stimuli.

I think it has more to do with F/T than I/E

This is what the great dr.jung said:

For the sake of clarity let us again recapitulate: The products of all the functions can be conscious, but we speak of the consciousness of a function only when not merely its application is at the disposal of the will, but when at the same time its principle is decisive for the orientation of consciousness. The latter event is true when, for instance, thinking is not a mere afterthought, or rumination...
 

hjgbujhghg

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Then you need to figure a way to communicate with forum people outside of the forum for faster communication :yes:




I think it has more to do with F/T than I/E

This is what the great dr.jung said:

I communicate with people outside the forum [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION] or [MENTION=22098]Jarlaxle[/MENTION] , or basically anyone from vent could say how reactive I am.
But yes I can see the point in F being more reactive than T. Also I think I am sx dom which makes me even more reactive on stimuli.
 

INTP

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I communicate with people outside the forum [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION] or [MENTION=22098]Jarlaxle[/MENTION] , or basically anyone from vent could say how reactive I am.
But yes I can see the point in F being more reactive than T. Also I think I am sx dom which makes me even more reactive on stimuli.

I was referring to the speaking before thinking and accidentally left the reactive thing on the quote
 

Riva

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Inis from what i know of you from vent, what i have observed of you at vent - i know about you quite a bit and noticed your interactions/personality quite a lot - and WITHOUT READING any of the posts/self descriptions in this thread i will easily type you as an ENFP 7W6.

I am unabke to type your instinctual variant without thinking about it.
 

skylights

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Then you need to figure a way to communicate with forum people outside of the forum for faster communication :yes:




I think it has more to do with F/T than I/E

This is what the great dr.jung said:

I think a lot of Introverted Feelers - maybe even some Extraverted Feelers - would have a hard time with agreeing to that. Myself - even when I identified as ENFP - and other IxFx friends - I think rarely speak without consideration. Of course every once in a while my mouth will run ahead of my brain, but those situations are rare compared to the amount of times that I mull over my thoughts long before voicing them. I do not have much of a gift for speaking eloquently on-the-fly, whereas I think Extraverts tend to do much better with that.

I assumed that Jung was saying in that quote that a function can be termed conscious if and only if it both is engaged intentionally and produces a marked effect on the person's perspective. Thinking is used as an example of that, if it occurs intentionally and affects the person's judgment before a behavior such as speech. But that doesn't mean that Feelers don't think or even Think before they speak. Plus, I don't remember what Jung's take on this was, but I am of the opinion that Feeling is probably typically roping in more subconsciousness then Thinking.

In my opinion, preferring to think before speaking or think as you speak can be affected by a number of factors... Extraversion is probably the dominant factor, but I think that ExxPs are also likely to think as they speak slightly more frequently than ExxJs, ExxJs more than IxxPs, IxxPs more than IxxJs. Fs are probably slightly more likely to think as they speak than Ts, but not enough to override extraversion and introversion preferences. I think Enneatype can also play in, with 7s and 9s being less restrictive with language while 1s, 5s, and 3s keep language under tighter specific control, and I can at least speak for e6 hesitance and pre-planning in terms of choosing what to say, how, and when...
 

INTP

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I think a lot of Introverted Feelers - maybe even some Extraverted Feelers - would have a hard time with agreeing to that. Myself - even when I identified as ENFP - and other IxFx friends - I think rarely speak without consideration. Of course every once in a while my mouth will run ahead of my brain, but those situations are rare compared to the amount of times that I mull over my thoughts long before voicing them. I do not have much of a gift for speaking eloquently on-the-fly, whereas I think Extraverts tend to do much better with that.

I assumed that Jung was saying in that quote that a function can be termed conscious if and only if it both is engaged intentionally and produces a marked effect on the person's perspective. Thinking is used as an example of that, if it occurs intentionally and affects the person's judgment before a behavior such as speech. But that doesn't mean that Feelers don't think or even Think before they speak. Plus, I don't remember what Jung's take on this was, but I am of the opinion that Feeling is probably typically roping in more subconsciousness then Thinking.

In my opinion, preferring to think before speaking or think as you speak can be affected by a number of factors... Extraversion is probably the dominant factor, but I think that ExxPs are also likely to think as they speak slightly more frequently than ExxJs, ExxJs more than IxxPs, IxxPs more than IxxJs. Fs are probably slightly more likely to think as they speak than Ts, but not enough to override extraversion and introversion preferences. I think Enneatype can also play in, with 7s and 9s being less restrictive with language while 1s, 5s, and 3s keep language under tighter specific control, and I can at least speak for e6 hesitance and pre-planning in terms of choosing what to say, how, and when...

Well first i dont think that consciousness of a function is an on/off thing. I asked my ENFP friend once about talking without thinking(/analyzing what to say before saying it) and his attitude is that it just complicates things and thus he tries not to do it when ever possible. Also naturally some Fs use T more(and more consciously) than others, its about how differentiated the function is and how much it effects the overall attitude. In the quote Jung is talking about the consciousness of aux function, but the same thing applies to T in tert/inferior position too.
Really even tho its about overall use of thinking(like all acting without using T first), it applies to talking before thinking too. Because thinking(or not) before doing something effects the attitude which you take towards the action. My INFP friend for example does often think before talking(but usually its more like feeling the thing before talking), but he does things without thinking really often(and usually feels bad for not thinking before doing something because he just gets the afterthought and sees that he didnt do the correct thing or was acting irrationally), and even tho he feels inferior for constantly doing something stupid, he is still unable to change his attitude.
 

skylights

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Well first i dont think that consciousness of a function is an on/off thing. I asked my ENFP friend once about talking without thinking(/analyzing what to say before saying it) and his attitude is that it just complicates things and thus he tries not to do it when ever possible. Also naturally some Fs use T more(and more consciously) than others, its about how differentiated the function is and how much it effects the overall attitude. In the quote Jung is talking about the consciousness of aux function, but the same thing applies to T in tert/inferior position too.
Really even tho its about overall use of thinking(like all acting without using T first), it applies to talking before thinking too. Because thinking(or not) before doing something effects the attitude which you take towards the action. My INFP friend for example does often think before talking(but usually its more like feeling the thing before talking), but he does things without thinking really often(and usually feels bad for not thinking before doing something because he just gets the afterthought and sees that he didnt do the correct thing or was acting irrationally), and even tho he feels inferior for constantly doing something stupid, he is still unable to change his attitude.

Okay, I see what you mean. I just think that maybe it's important to make a substantial difference between colloquial thinking in terms of just running through mental processing and the specific cognitive process of Thinking. I am sure there are many Introverted Feelers who do not do much cognitive process Thinking before acting. But that is very, very different from whether one runs through any rational mental process whatsoever before speaking or acting. I think the majority of IxFx do tend to run their mental processes prior to acting or speaking, even if they do not use T.
 

INTP

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Okay, I see what you mean. I just think that maybe it's important to make a substantial difference between colloquial thinking in terms of just running through mental processing and the specific cognitive process of Thinking. I am sure there are many Introverted Feelers who do not do much cognitive process Thinking before acting. But that is very, very different from whether one runs through any rational mental process whatsoever before speaking or acting. I think the majority of IxFx do tend to run their mental processes prior to acting or speaking, even if they do not use T.

Well i think that the real difference is between feeling before acting and thinking before acting. For example:

"Oh he is making me so mad because X Y and Z, therefore im going to start yelling."

Or

"He is making me so mad because of X Y and Z, if i say this and that to him, then he realizes why he makes me so mad and will change his behavior, im going to tell him to fuck off for good because this shit would never change."

Both of these include F, but the first example is acting purely based on feeling, but the second one also includes thinking. Both of these are also rational(as jung defined rationality).

As you can most likely see that F types are also capable of the second example, but it depends on the level of differentiation of thinking and ofc on how intense the emotion and therefore the feeling judgment as well is(and how the person reacts to intense emotions etc).

And yes, maybe an example with strong negative emotions isnt the best possible, because it tends to bring the irrational and acting without thinking easily in anyone(regardless of T or F), but i cant think of a better example now.
 
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