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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon Corax View Post
    Is the desire to be appreciated strictly seen as a means to connect and communicate or as a natural part in self-develeopment (e.g. painting because you want to become someone and therefore associate yourself with a form of immortality)? I care quite a bit for improving myself, but it doesn't always happen through means that give the possibility to connect to other people. For instance, I take an interest in drawing, but it is on par with my interest in Norse mythology, or quantum physics, which will never provide me with a medium for communication. I've seen this before as a manifestation of the INTP tendency of taking up many things at once and having various hobbies.
    With Fe-inferior and Fi as a shadow type, INTP is of all the types least interested in making their ideas known or felt to others. Although they may feel, and often are, misunderstood, it will often be given up as a lost cause. Or the INTP will congregate with other INTPs who are like-minded in their ideas. An interest in doing art is, of course, not limited in type, but as I said for the INFJ (being Fe-aux) there is a desire to communicate to others. The Ti-tertiary of the INFJ gives it an air of logical authority and independence that belies their true personality. Getting to know the INFJ better will reveal otherwise. This sheltered person has no real desire to be sheltered, but feels it is necessary due to the extremely personal (and often dark) nature of the internal state.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
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    Oh, another question, is deductive reasoning considered a way to achieve such visions? I suppose it's not, as I'd assume it involves Thinking more than iNtuition.

    Let us suppose I am not a Ni-dom type, which is rather likely now. I am thinking of a topic and have in mind a certain direction in which to canalize my resources. I am looking for a specific answer, not merely giving general considerations, in other words. I get to the same conclusion a Ni-dom does, but they do it more intuitively and I do it for a list of reasons that I am aware of and that, given a particular premise, lead to that outcome. I can explain how or why I think it will be so. It is -not- a vision, right? Because this type of process is what I'd more likely engage in.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon Corax View Post
    Oh, another question, is deductive reasoning considered a way to achieve such visions? I suppose it's not, as I'd assume it involves Thinking more than iNtuition.

    Let us suppose I am not a Ni-dom type, which is rather likely now. I am thinking of a topic and have in mind a certain direction in which to canalize my resources. I am looking for a specific answer, not merely giving general considerations, in other words. I get to the same conclusion a Ni-dom does, but they do it more intuitively and I do it for a list of reasons that I am aware of and that, given a particular premise, lead to that outcome. I can explain how or why I think it will be so. It is -not- a vision, right? Because this type of process is what I'd more likely engage in.
    Some visions are more controlled while others are spontaneous. The truly spontaneous visions belong to the INFJ, while the INTJ has visions determined by a thought-process, that is, they occur via a process which, as I said before, conceptually unites past and present into the future.

    This future will regard something external, it has nothing to do with predicting the internal outcomes of Ti sorts of theories such as QM, because these outcomes are purely theoretical.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Or to put it another way, a vision is literally a vision - as in an internal perception. As such, it is a product of imagination, and it can be produced either through an explicit conceptual process or as the result of an unconscious flash of intuition that produces a vision.

    As an INTP, I've had flashes of ideas, theories, new ideas. But that road doesn't, of itself, lead to any externalized ideas regarding (as with Te and Fe) ordering the external world. I don't wish to change society but merely to subjectively please myself, that is, to satisfy my desire to come up with something novel in the realm of theories.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    With Fe-inferior and Fi as a shadow type, INTP is of all the types least interested in making their ideas known or felt to others. Although they may feel, and often are, misunderstood, it will often be given up as a lost cause.
    This is part of why I switched to thinking of myself as an INTJ to INTP-ing around. INTJs seem to want the external world to be in a way that is in conformity with their ideas. I do not really care much about how it is organized. If someone is doing their job well, I don't care if they're doing it differently than I am. Nor do I care if someone pertains to a system of belief that's nothing but logical inconsistencies. I will want to give arguments against it and debunk it if it's a close friend, for instance, and someone in whose intellectual abilities I believe. However, for the most part, I'll leave them to their flawed opinions and nurture some condescending thoughts to feed my misanthropia.

    I like debates on the internet, though. They seem a bit more factual and, once someone is engaging in them, you can have the certainty that they are either open to other opinions, or well-versed in supporting theirs. Which is no so true about real life.
    Last edited by Daemon Corax; 08-30-2014 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Typo.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon Corax View Post
    This is part of why I switched to thinking of myself as an INTJ to INTP-ing around. INTJs seem to want the external world in a way that is in conformity with their ideas. I do not really care much about how it is organized. If someone is doing their job well, I don't care if they're doing it differently than I am. Nor do I care if someone pertains to a system of belief that's nothing but logical inconsistencies. I will want to give arguments against it and debunk it if it's a close friend, for instance, and someone in whose intellectual abilities I believe. However, for the most part, I'll leave them to their flawed opinions and nurture some condescending thoughts to feed my misanthropia.

    I like debates on the internet, though. They seem a bit more factual and, once someone is engaging in them, you can have the certainty that they are either open to other opinions, or well-versed in supporting theirs. Which is no so true about real life.
    The orderly ideas of the INTJ, it must be remembered, come from the external realm. And INTJ intends that the external realm stay that way. So they are very conservative in maintaining their ideas externally. Ti is a shadow type for the INTJ, and as such, logical systems are not very important except to the extent that logical systems help maintain and organize certain of their ideas. But the INTJ isn't very good at maintaining the Ti rigor of this internal order very well by itself, and is more prone to irrational flights of fancy in the internal realm, theories based in such things as a stern belief in the supernatural that the Ti-dom would consider ridiculous. But such ideas are often founded in the external realm, society (e.g., religious organizations).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Yet the ideas of the external organization, for both the INTJ and INFJ, remain in the theoretical realm. These types are not interested in the literal social aspects, that is, the blending in and merging with tribes of people. That they may do so is not the point, which is that they are not interested in it for its own sake.

    The INTJ and INFJ may retain a chameleon-like feigning of interest that the INTP type would less likely engage in. The INTP would much rather stay in the corner of the social gathering and mull over things of personal interest (the same can be said for the INFP, although this type is more likely to engage others in terms of finding a partner).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon Corax View Post
    This is part of why I switched to thinking of myself as an INTJ to INTP-ing around. INTJs seem to want the external world to be in a way that is in conformity with their ideas. I do not really care much about how it is organized. If someone is doing their job well, I don't care if they're doing it differently than I am. Nor do I care if someone pertains to a system of belief that's nothing but logical inconsistencies. I will want to give arguments against it and debunk it if it's a close friend, for instance, and someone in whose intellectual abilities I believe. However, for the most part, I'll leave them to their flawed opinions and nurture some condescending thoughts to feed my misanthropia.

    I like debates on the internet, though. They seem a bit more factual and, once someone is engaging in them, you can have the certainty that they are either open to other opinions, or well-versed in supporting theirs. Which is no so true about real life.
    As a bit more of an advanced notion, engaging others intellectually, whether in a forum debate or a game of chess, allows the INTP to exercise the shadow-opposite of Ti which is Te. A chess game or a game of Risk is, in a figurative sense, a mere shadow of a real war in which a Te general would engage.

    On the other hand, a battle gives the Te general an opportunity to exercise his Ti shadow-opposite in terms of how to logically counter an enemy's moves. But the Te general is well aware that life does not conform to rules as a chess game does. Thus, for him, the Ti is a shadow type in which its pure theory cannot keep up with the reality of the moment.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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