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  1. #1
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    Default 5w4 or 4w5 ... again

    Hello.

    I've noticed a few threads related to the distinction between these two subtypes. It seems like a not so uncommon difficulty.

    Specifically my question relates to the potential for shifting from one to the other. I understand that there's this idea that types are somehow fundamentally immutable...though I might be tempted to argue this in principle. Regardless...

    In the MB world, I've tested both as INTP and INFP in professionally administered evals. In almost every case those two factors score almost right at 50%. I understand that there are big differences in those types and the scheme wouldn't so much support one being kind of both, etc. I make the point as a preface to the Enneagram details since it seems to be relevant. I should also note that within that work context I've consistently received feedback about having some unusual trait blends as it relates to technical and creative, etc. So there very well might be learned / adaptation behavior and refinement that results in the test result ambiguity...not to mention that most questions could be answered differently based upon the intention of the asker...and to remove intention from a question just about renders it meaningless. That's another story...

    So, to the point, the Enneagram...

    I took a not so rigorous online version of the eval and scored 5w4 with a very high 4. In doing some research, I subsequently (a few days later) took a more extended version in one of the Riso books and scored a 4w5 with a much higher 4, but still with a fairly high 5. The third highest factor in that test was actually a 1 followed by 6.

    What was equally interesting is that in going back through the test questions, if I answered with a bias of how I am behaviorally more often now (ie. in the more recent past) I would again score 5w4. However, if I answer with my behavior in the more distant past, it's the 4w5.

    I will also add that I've always contended that a certain period during my adolescent development was high stress, involved a lot of soul searching and extreme ascetic behavior, having removed myself not so much in search of book knowledge but rather soul knowledge, if that makes sense. The result was a fairly different individual coming out vs the one who'd gone in. Absolutely I'd say one who was less emotional.

    The other factor wrt learned behaviors and habits would be what I do professionally, which is very systems oriented, and so where I spend more of my cognitive time.

    So, there is at least one question in there somewhere. I would certainly appreciate any feedback wrt 5w4 vs 4w5 in general. But more specifically, I'm wondering if such a shift in test results would make sense given the proximity of the subtypes at the more external/practical levels (ie. irrespective of fundamental fears, motivators, etc) along with certain life changing environmental factors.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I think 5w4 INTP.

  3. #3
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    @chrcgr

    I'd be curious to hear about what aspects of yourself get in the way of having close relationships with others (if any). Are there any habitual ways you tend to sabotage aspects of your life? (This is more to get at the "enneagram type as unhealthy habitual coping mechanism.)

  4. #4
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    Default self sabotage, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    @chrcgr

    I'd be curious to hear about what aspects of yourself get in the way of having close relationships with others (if any). Are there any habitual ways you tend to sabotage aspects of your life? (This is more to get at the "enneagram type as unhealthy habitual coping mechanism.)
    Hello and thank you, Seymour. That's a good question and one that requires a fair amount of reflection.

    To be as open as possible...

    I'd say the earliest way that comes to mind was seems like kind of hybrid of narcotization, denial and introjection. But since I'm not even remotely qualified to truly say in those terms, I would describe it as phases of dwelling on the sources of discomfort, attempts to nullify or purge the behaviors or desires as well as a period of nullification through substance use/abuse (initially adopted with intention as a tool for reflection and modification). Much of the latter two forms occurring in the aforementioned cathartic/transformation period (also known as college). I'd also say that's about when I began undertaking intense'ish periods of isolation and deprivation (eg. enjoyed sensory deprivation experimentation, abstinence, etc...in that sense, likely not the typical college experience).

    These days habitually? Definitely quite a bit of isolation, which, while desirable and necessary on certain levels for me, honestly has a buffering effect. And also too degrees of procrastination and foregone conclusions wrt undesirable outcomes. And if I were to hazard a guess at the underlying fears/concerns in those cases, likely degrees of dissonance between the ideas of success and self-image, safeguarding emotional energy against obligatory interaction, ritual overhead and surely other things as well.

    Does that even come close to answering the question?

  5. #5
    Member ginniebean's Avatar
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    Both the 4 and the 5 type are concerned with knowledge. For the four knowledge is an exotic quest. It's the heart of knowledge. For the 5 the avidity is a dryer need to accumulate knowledge. Often for it's own sake or some special interest yet ultimately knowledge is about safety for the 5.

    Does one of these resonate more with you?

  6. #6
    Member ginniebean's Avatar
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    Both the 4 and the 5 type are concerned with knowledge. For the four knowledge is an exotic quest. It's the heart of knowledge. For the 5 the avidity is a dryer need to accumulate knowledge. Often for it's own sake or some special interest yet ultimately knowledge is about safety for the 5.

    Does one of these resonate more with you?

  7. #7
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    Default more so

    Quote Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
    Both the 4 and the 5 type are concerned with knowledge. For the four knowledge is an exotic quest. It's the heart of knowledge. For the 5 the avidity is a dryer need to accumulate knowledge. Often for it's own sake or some special interest yet ultimately knowledge is about safety for the 5.

    Does one of these resonate more with you?
    Hello, ginniebean.

    As phrased that way, the aspect of 5 that resonates is knowledge for its own sake as in often devoid of any specific intention for application. But the element of safety...not so much. I certainly like the sense of being useful and would rather be accurate than inaccurate (when indeed such a distinction is relevant). I would say that in the sense of quest or the esoteric, the 4 description rings more truly. Typically the pursuit of a subject feels like a drive to get at the heart of something and might or might not result in an extended focus in any one particular area. The focus tends to be inter- or multi-disciplinary, sometimes whimsy or inspired, and less often about gaining mastery in competency in terms of specific applications, if that makes sense...and I suspect one reason why I've struggled with the idea of continuing graduate work...the idea of a predetermined curriculum seems counterproductive and a given practice or application besides the point.

    And to extend that a bit, even within the realm of systems design/development or analytics, I usually find a way to make it a creative process...at least that's the aspect I find most satisfying...the creation.

  8. #8
    Member ginniebean's Avatar
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    That question mark in your mbti, is likely a T.

  9. #9
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    Default probably so

    Quote Originally Posted by ginniebean View Post
    That question mark in your mbti, is likely a T.
    Probably so.

    Interestingly, in revisiting my enneagram triads, the heart and mind triads are roughly equal also. S'pose I'll chalk it all up to learned behavior, though in the process of poking around also happened upon this Oldham Idiosyncratic type, which can be a combination of INTP or INTJ and 5w4 or 4w5...so given that and your profile, I guess not all that uncommon.

  10. #10
    Assassin from the future Qloshae's Avatar
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    The types are very different, trust me, I have a type 4 friend.
    Type 4s are open to all emotions and are known to be drawn towards the more negative emotions (not self-destructively, more like that they just find them beautiful).
    Type 5s is probably the one type that to the fullest extent tries to avoid emotions due to our tendency to withdraw and detach.

    The three centers are doing, feeling, thinking and the types within it either obsess with it or actively tries to avoid it like types 3, 7, 9. Opposite would be types 4, 5 and 8.

    Heart types have a focus on shame and relate to it differently. Head types focus on fear and relate to it differently.

    These are also some of the large differences:
    http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/harmonics.html
    http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/ObjectRelns.html
    MBTI: IXXX (I don't even believe in it atm.)
    Enneagram: 5 | Sx/So
    Big 5: RLOAI (last time I did it)
    Alignment: True Neutral
    MOTIV type: SOTID
    MOTIV+ type: |S|oxiD

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