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Thread: Fi/Te vs Ti/Fe

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    Post Fi/Te vs Ti/Fe

    The title is self-explanatory. Only that the 'Versus' implies differences or discrepancies, not battles or arguments (gotta take measures against the jests).

    Incidentally, I'm fairly certain that I'm an xNxP (leaning towards ENP), or even an xSxJ (leaning towards ISJ), if we are to consider every possibility. Basically, I've arrived at the conclusion that my perception functions are Ne and Si.

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    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Fi/Te is pragmatic about objects, but not about emotions. it's good at determining 'what's there and what will will work' as far as planning, arranging facts, objects, dates, etc., but may not see 'what's there and what will work' as far as the emotions of others, may be overwhelmed by the prospect of making a decision that will effect the emotions of others.

    Fe/Ti is pragmatic about feelings. better at guessing how people will react, and gauging emotional climates, more diplomatic speech, with emotional statements more eloquently stated and composed. better at finding inconsistencies in arguments/theories. systematic construction of ideas and concepts to form a framework of understanding rather than manipulating objects and concrete information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    Fi/Te is pragmatic about objects, but not about emotions. it's good at determining 'what's there and what will will work' as far as planning, arranging facts, objects, dates, etc., but may not see 'what's there and what will work' as far as the emotions of others, may be overwhelmed by the prospect of making a decision that will effect the emotions of others.

    Fe/Ti is pragmatic about feelings. better at guessing how people will react, and gauging emotional climates, more diplomatic speech, with emotional statements more eloquently stated and composed. better at finding inconsistencies in arguments/theories. systematic construction of ideas and concepts to form a framework of understanding rather than manipulating objects and concrete information.
    Quite honestly I relate to parts of both as described here. Not thread hijacking when I mention myself, just saying this is one of the reasons why I'm not entirely satisfied with this attempt at differentiating the two pairs of T/F functions.

    Then, the Fe/Ti as you describe it, sounds like F preference overall except some bits of course. Otoh the Fi/Te as you describe it is rather T-ish overall, IMO. The Ji and especially Fi aspects seem a bit neglected in the description.

    That Fe/Ti really is too much F there to generalize for everyone who prefers the Ti/Fe over Fi/Te; someone who's Ti-dom wouldn't naturally be paying that much attention to diplomacy and guessing how people will react emotionally. It can be done but it's not as natural by default. Inferior Fe is infamous for being really NOT eloquent and composed in the area of emotional statements. I would also disagree that Ti can't be involved in manipulating objects. Oh it can, very much, just a different approach compared to Te.

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    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    Quite honestly I relate to parts of both as described here. Not thread hijacking when I mention myself, just saying this is one of the reasons why I'm not entirely satisfied with this attempt at differentiating the two pairs of T/F functions.

    Then, the Fe/Ti as you describe it, sounds like F preference overall. Otoh the Fi/Te as you describe it is rather T-ish overall, IMO.

    That Fe/Ti really is too much F there to generalize for everyone who prefers the Ti/Fe over Fi/Te; someone who's Ti-dom wouldn't naturally be paying that much attention to diplomacy and guessing how people will react emotionally. It can be done but it's not as natural by default. Inferior Fe is infamous for being really NOT eloquent and composed in the area of emotional statements. I would also disagree that Ti can't be involved in manipulating objects. Oh it can, very much, just a different approach compared to Te.
    i appreciate this. i put this out as a rough attempt as putting this into words. i'm working on putting these concepts and functions into concrete terms myself, so this kind of feedback is exactly what i'm looking for.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

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    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Fi is the adoption of a mental moral framework that is created to model how people should be acting (emotionally, ethically, morally) in the environment. This process is internal at first, and then is externalized upon the environment (projection). The environment, then, is expected to act according to the ethical model, and when it doesn't, it cries out to be fixed so that it may align itself with the model. Decisions are based on one's own ethical creed, and Fi also leads to the projection of internal emotional states onto the environment (emotional attachments). Te, on the other hand, builds frameworks from ones already available in the environment, taking empirical, observable evidence from the environment (absorption) and basing decisions on the technicalities absorbed from the environment. The process is external at first, and then it is internalized to be interpreted (extrapolation), so that the Te user can make mechanical, pragmatic decisions based on objective logical models and evidence provided by the external environment.

    For Fi, Pe provides raw information to help Fi build its rational moral structure that is projected onto the environment.
    For Te, Pi helps interpret raw data that has been collected by Te absorption process to be externalized in the decision-making process.

    Ti is the adoption of a framework woven by subjective Formal Logic (juxtaposing Fi, which is subjective ethical reasoning) and the projection of the rational, logical model onto the environment in an effort to understand the technical under-workings of the environment. The framework assesses how the environment is working logically, attempting to reason out how things should be working with Formal Logic instead of actually assessing how the environment is functioning based on evidence (domain of Te). Any logical deviations in the environment quickly lead Ti to root out the cause of the deviation with an extroverted perceiving function (just as Fi does with ethical deviations) and figure out what is causing the environment to not align with the mental model. Ti, then, makes decisions based on how things should be working according to Formal Logic and one's own reasoning. Fe, on the other hand, builds ethical frameworks from ones already present in the environment, adhering to the ethical standards of society and the creeds present in the environment. Ethics isn't reasoned out such as with the Fi function, it is absorbed from the environment so that it may be interpreted and reapplied to the environment according to the interpretation (as with the interpretation of empirical data with Te). Also, Fe absorbs the emotional stimuli from the environment and internalizes it as well, meaning that the emotional significance of events and emotional stimuli is absorbed from the environment to be interpreted by the introverted perception function for personal significance of the external emotional significance.

    For Ti, Pe provides raw information to help Ti build its rational, logical structure that is projected onto the environment.
    For Fe, Pi helps interpret raw data that has been collected by Fe absorption process to be externalized in decision-making.

    One axis projects emotions and absorbs technical, logical evidence, the other axis projects logical principles and absorbs ethical, emotional evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Fi is the adoption of a mental moral framework that is created to model how people should be acting (emotionally, ethically, morally) in the environment. This process is internal at first, and then is externalized upon the environment (projection). The environment, then, is expected to act according to the ethical model, and when it doesn't, it cries out to be fixed so that it may align itself with the model. Decisions are based on one's own ethical creed, and Fi also leads to the projection of internal emotional states onto the environment (emotional attachments). Te, on the other hand, builds frameworks from ones already available in the environment, taking empirical, observable evidence from the environment (absorption) and basing decisions on the technicalities absorbed from the environment. The process is external at first, and then it is internalized to be interpreted (extrapolation), so that the Te user can make mechanical, pragmatic decisions based on objective logical models and evidence provided by the external environment.

    For Fi, Pe provides raw information to help Fi build its rational moral structure that is projected onto the environment.
    For Te, Pi helps interpret raw data that has been collected by Te absorption process to be externalized in the decision-making process.

    Ti is the adoption of a framework woven by subjective Formal Logic (juxtaposing Fi, which is subjective ethical reasoning) and the projection of the rational, logical model onto the environment in an effort to understand the technical under-workings of the environment. The framework assesses how the environment is working logically, attempting to reason out how things should be working with Formal Logic instead of actually assessing how the environment is functioning based on evidence (domain of Te). Any logical deviations in the environment quickly lead Ti to root out the cause of the deviation with an extroverted perceiving function (just as Fi does with ethical deviations) and figure out what is causing the environment to not align with the mental model. Ti, then, makes decisions based on how things should be working according to Formal Logic and one's own reasoning. Fe, on the other hand, builds ethical frameworks from ones already present in the environment, adhering to the ethical standards of society and the creeds present in the environment. Ethics isn't reasoned out such as with the Fi function, it is absorbed from the environment so that it may be interpreted and reapplied to the environment according to the interpretation (as with the interpretation of empirical data with Te). Also, Fe absorbs the emotional stimuli from the environment and internalizes it as well, meaning that the emotional significance of events and emotional stimuli is absorbed from the environment to be interpreted by the introverted perception function for personal significance of the external emotional significance.

    For Ti, Pe provides raw information to help Ti build its rational, logical structure that is projected onto the environment.
    For Fe, Pi helps interpret raw data that has been collected by Fe absorption process to be externalized in decision-making.

    One axis projects emotions and absorbs technical, logical evidence, the other axis projects logical principles and absorbs ethical, emotional evidence.
    I understand the fundamentals of how Fi/Te and Ti/Fe work. The problem here is that I cannot fathom the nature of my own internal framework, or the nature of my absorption of external information. I'm fairly young and my the dynamics of my own thought process are identifiable and yet nebulous to me. At this point, I would prefer anecdotal comparisons or contextual questions.
    You did ask me a few questions in the other thread.
    Cognitive Functions + Socionics + Enneagram

    I wonder whether this is an indication that I lean towards ENFP. According to various ENFp profiles, they often find it difficult to explain intangible concepts or systems articulately and resort to metaphors or anecdotes to do the job. You can also see an instance of this in this very thread.
    @Alea_iacta_est

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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    i appreciate this. i put this out as a rough attempt as putting this into words. i'm working on putting these concepts and functions into concrete terms myself, so this kind of feedback is exactly what i'm looking for.
    Glad if I could help


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Fi is the adoption of a mental moral framework that is created to model how people should be acting (emotionally, ethically, morally) in the environment. This process is internal at first, and then is externalized upon the environment (projection). The environment, then, is expected to act according to the ethical model, and when it doesn't, it cries out to be fixed so that it may align itself with the model. Decisions are based on one's own ethical creed, and Fi also leads to the projection of internal emotional states onto the environment (emotional attachments). Te, on the other hand, builds frameworks from ones already available in the environment, taking empirical, observable evidence from the environment (absorption) and basing decisions on the technicalities absorbed from the environment. The process is external at first, and then it is internalized to be interpreted (extrapolation), so that the Te user can make mechanical, pragmatic decisions based on objective logical models and evidence provided by the external environment.
    The bolded sounds rather like MBTI Fe. Mixing socionics and MBTI here isn't very fortunate. I'm pretty sure Jung also meant something else by Fi. I'm no authority on what Fi exactly is though, I don't have a lot of Fi myself :P

    You later mention that Fe doesn't reason out the ethical model like Fi does; can you write more about how Fi does this sort of reasoning and what it looks like?


    Ti is the adoption of a framework woven by subjective Formal Logic (juxtaposing Fi, which is subjective ethical reasoning)
    Uhhm, I think it does no justice to Ti to just call it "Formal Logic". Really, formal logic is something else. It just so happens to fall in line with properly working logical reasoning, either Ti or Te. If we must include formal logic here, I would say it's part of the basis for both Ti and Te...

    I would say Ti is more about the subjective feeling of logic. Actually Augusta (socionics founder) put that very well, I'm ok with "mixing" the MBTI Ti with that one :P There's definitely something shared; She talked about "logical feelings" of objective traits etc. It's all at wikisocion btw if you haven't seen it. Says nothing about formal logic and I like it that way. Lenore Thomson also was talking about something similar. Again it was not simply formal logic.


    and the projection of the rational, logical model onto the environment in an effort to understand the technical under-workings of the environment. The framework assesses how the environment is working logically, attempting to reason out how things should be working with Formal Logic instead of actually assessing how the environment is functioning based on evidence (domain of Te). Any logical deviations in the environment quickly lead Ti to root out the cause of the deviation with an extroverted perceiving function (just as Fi does with ethical deviations) and figure out what is causing the environment to not align with the mental model. Ti, then, makes decisions based on how things should be working according to Formal Logic and one's own reasoning.
    OK, honestly not nitpicking, but would like to know what you mean by evidence if it's not something that the Pe function may bring to Ti. What kind of evidence is it that is the domain of Te?


    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Enigma View Post
    I understand the fundamentals of how Fi/Te and Ti/Fe work. The problem here is that I cannot fathom the nature of my own internal framework, or the nature of my absorption of external information. I'm fairly young and my the dynamics of my own thought process are identifiable and yet nebulous to me. At this point, I would prefer anecdotal comparisons or contextual questions.
    Heh it's a pretty abstract way of putting the fundamentals. I agree examples would be helpful in applying it


    (...) I wonder whether this is an indication that I lean towards ENFP. According to various ENFp profiles, they often find it difficult to explain intangible concepts or systems articulately and resort to metaphors or anecdotes to do the job. You can also see an instance of this in this very thread.
    That's alright, in MBTI even Ti-doms are said to have trouble with articulating their thoughts. I don't think this depends on where your Ti is in your function stack; it's more to do with how verbal you are, I think. When I think logically, I rarely bother with putting it into words. That only happens when I try to communicate my thoughts to others. That's always an extra effort for me though I do have the patience/willpower to get through the ordeal :P. Otoh I have seen a few IxTP's on these forums who can speak very eloquently about their ideas and I suppose it comes for them very easily too.

    In socionics what could be indicative of Ti PoLR for you is if you can only convey Ti logic via talking about your personal experiences in unnecessary detail, not differentiating between relevant and irrelevant. Now, personal experience is definitely part of how Ti functions - here both socionics and MBTI's Lenore Thomson and even Jung happen to say the same - but how readily you abstract away the logic from the personal experience is what would be telling if you're PoLR or creative Ti or ENFP vs ENTP etc.

    Also, how easily do you pick up logical systems? This would correlate with IQ too, so maybe a better way to put it is, how readily do you do so? Even when not really needed?

    Btw, some people have actually said I sound like SEE/ESFp in my socionics type me thread and I did think about it before myself. So, among other things, I analysed this Ti PoLR question before. But I actually *like* some Ti stuff. That's the decisive factor for me. So when I ask you if you care even when it's not really needed, that could help with differentiating between ENTp and ENFp and ENTP/ENFP in MBTI as well.

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    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    The bolded sounds rather like MBTI Fe. Mixing socionics and MBTI here isn't very fortunate. I'm pretty sure Jung also meant something else by Fi. I'm no authority on what Fi exactly is though, I don't have a lot of Fi myself :P

    You later mention that Fe doesn't reason out the ethical model like Fi does; can you write more about how Fi does this sort of reasoning and what it looks like?




    Uhhm, I think it does no justice to Ti to just call it "Formal Logic". Really, formal logic is something else. It just so happens to fall in line with properly working logical reasoning, either Ti or Te. If we must include formal logic here, I would say it's part of the basis for both Ti and Te...

    I would say Ti is more about the subjective feeling of logic. Actually Augusta (socionics founder) put that very well, I'm ok with "mixing" the MBTI Ti with that one :P There's definitely something shared; She talked about "logical feelings" of objective traits etc. It's all at wikisocion btw if you haven't seen it. Says nothing about formal logic and I like it that way. Lenore Thomson also was talking about something similar. Again it was not simply formal logic.




    OK, honestly not nitpicking, but would like to know what you mean by evidence if it's not something that the Pe function may bring to Ti. What kind of evidence is it that is the domain of Te?
    Mixing MBTI and Socionics is atrocious; however, mixing JCF and Socionics isn't.

    Fi, being an Introverted Judging function, rationally reasons out personal ethics and moral creeds. Assuming Fi is a conscious function, then Fi is 'conducted' by the individual to determine what is morally right, and what is morally wrong, so that the Fi user can build a framework to impose upon the external environment. The Fi users project ethical values onto situations in the environment to morally orient themselves and their position. They reason out in their minds why one side of a situation or controversy is morally in the wrong, while doing the same for the one that is morally wrong, with circumstantial evidence (provided by lovely Pe* which will be the subject of the Te vs Pe conversation in just a second). This reasoning can be provided by how the individual approached other topics in order to stray from being hypocritical (more common with Fi dominants, who are more dogmatic in their ethical imposing); for example, if I find that killing animals is morally wrong, then I should also find the consumption of animals mass slaughtered by factories wrong as well, since it causes the problem in the first place (product demand); ergo, I should become a vegan because veganism is morally right due to the fact that it reduces the demand (microscopically) and thus goes against the morally wrong action of mass slaughtering animals (started out with killing animals is wrong, got to veganism is right). By the way, veganism is stupid.

    The reason I like to call it "Formal Logic" is because while it is subjective rationalization, it isn't really "subjective" since it focuses on objective truth that can be derived from pure logic (perhaps I should just call it "pure logic"?). Whereas Fi can work rather ambiguously due to the nature of morals, Ti is more forced to walk the road of pure logic so that it can reason out the machinations of the environment and project how the environment should be working accurately (pure logic is logical, after all) according to the pure logic that is conducted within. I rather enjoyed Augusta's description of Ti, for some reason I seem to have skipped over it before, so thank you for that. I would conjecture that the logical feelings arise from the projection of how the environment should be working according to pure logic onto the environment itself, how the object in the environment in question fits the standards of the pure logic model. If it is an unknown object, Ti flags it as such, and attempts to account for it after gathering circumstantial evidence through Pe. If there is an object leaning 70% off of a table, say a slender remote, the Ti user can use the Pe circumstantial evidence provided (the description) to project onto the object the concept of balance, or, rather, imbalance, thereby linking the idea of imbalance with the remote that is now probably falling off of the table. It is entirely logical to project the characteristic of imbalance onto the remote, due to the nature of the remote's position.

    The Te vs Pe debacle. (Ever wonder why there are a shit-ton of ESTp-ENTj mistypes in Socionics? Oh, and know that your nitpicking led to this wall of text under here)

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    I recently had a YouTube argument (yeah, I occasionally get into those) where the topic, in a vague way, was about morality. Perhaps you can derive some conclusions from the way I argue. Hopefully, you watch football and know what the context of the argument is, although I would say that it's easy to understand. Here's a link to assist you, anyway.

    http://youtu.be/ZgHhYgQnCPg
    http://youtu.be/mKmcxZtFvQ4
    5:30

    A - Anyone who says they wouldn't of done this for their country to get into the next round is an idiot. What was he suppose to do stand there and let it pass him and his country gets knocked out? It was a sacrifice any smart player would make for his team and country.

    B - Nah, Suarez is a cunt and is the scummiest cunt on Earth. I wouldn't of handballed it, because I actually have some respect for the rules.

    Me - Frankly, that's stupid. Your country is more important than some rules. Especially if you're representing your country in an international competition.

    Me - The end justifies the means. And anyway, Suarez wasn't cheating, by definition. He did get his comeuppance for breaking the rule. I don't know about how you people prioritize stuff but in my opinion, ensuring your country's progression to the next stage is more important than preserving your moral integrity. The latter just sounds selfish. So, you would throw away a chance to propel your country towards glory in a global competition only to protect your character? Football is about teams, not individuals. I don't know what was going through Suarez's mind but I think he made a heroic sacrifice (okay, that's an exaggeration but hey, it is a perspective). Besides, Ghana is at fault here. They should have capitalized on the penalty, both the foul one and the shootout.

    B - No. Suarez is a disgrace, and Uruguay along with Suarez should be ashamed.

    Me - I think your hatred (which seems subjective) for Suarez is clouding your judgment. You essentially managed to overlook the entire point of my comment. Congratulations.

    B - No, I actually have morales and self respect, and would never do something like Suarez done just for my country!

    Me - Well, that's sad. Your morals (not morales, by the way) just knocked your team out of the world cup. Unfortunately, football is not about the individual. You are a part of a group, a group of different people with different ideologies. If you think you're above that just because you follow some personal code of ethics, you don't need to participate in international team sports and jeopardize your team. Even if you're in it just for your own enjoyment or success, you are required to sacrifice your individuality for the sake of your team, and metaphorically, your country. Otherwise, you're no different from that guy in high school who only played for his own glory and never bothered to pass the ball to anyone else or that other guy who whined after the match because no one would pass the ball to him when he would do nothing other stand near the opponent's goal. I'm not even patriotic. As a matter of fact, I have a considerable amount of hatred for my own country. It's just about priorities. When you enter the field, you're playing for something bigger than you, and I'm not talking about your ego. Sure, you can call disguise it by calling it your sense of self-respect.

    http://youtu.be/E7yY2jvGhQA. Another one.

    A - Germany cheated! Cocksuckers. The goalkeeper had a list hidden in his sock so he knew which way the players were going to shoot!

    Me - Look, let me explain the situation with an example that you will certainly relate to. A surprise test for a topic that you hate and know nothing about is to be conducted tomorrow, and you and your hypothetical friend are distressed but determined not to flunk the test. While your lazy friend does not study at all and consults his neighbor's sheet during the test, you research studiously on the topic the night before and ace the test. This is what Germany did.

    A - Get a life, boyo. YOU should learn the difference between cheating and strategy. Strategy means scouting them but not having a list in your sock while you are playing with them. That is called cheating, dumbass.

    Me - It would have been cheating if Lehmann (the goalkeeper) was consulting the list during the game which he clearly did not, else the cameras would have caught him...


    I don't know, depends on what kind of logical systems you're referring to. It has always seemed like a vague combination of words to me. But, the best way to make me understand a concept is to use metaphors, or to a lesser extent, anecdotes.

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    ^you're an ENTP, i can tell it by the way you write, you ENTPs all have the same writing style :P

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