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  1. #31
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Ne, as I have witnessed its use, is a means of propagation -- generating variations of an idea, often with a minimum of consecutive association. Ti, of course, is deductive reasoning. Under this characterization, an INTP would consider multiple possibilities for a logical matrix; while an ENTP would rationally validate propositions.
    Yeah. Another example of Ne I'm thinking of involves making lots of matter-of-fact statements about something without casting any explicit judgment, but there being a "mood" or judgment implied in all of it; I have a story written by a roommate (ENFP) and also some song lyrics by a band I've recently fixed upon in mind. Lyrics follow:

    Quote Originally Posted by Death Cab for Cutie
    time for the final bout. rows of deserted houses:
    all our stable mates are highway bound.
    give us our measly sum:
    getting the air inside my lungs is heavenly.
    we're starting out with nothing but crippling doubt.
    we'll rest easy (justified).
    i've suffered a swift defeat, i'll endure countless repeats.
    the gift of memory is an awful curse.
    with age it just gets much worse, but i won't mind.
    Lots of observations being made, of not-necessarily-specific (i.e. abstract or meant-to-be-abstract) things, with a message (casted judgment) implied in the order and flow of the whole thing, along with key words that ensure comprehension. (Fi) I have a strong suspicion these guys (or at least the lead singer, who writes most of the songs AFAIK) are NFPs.

    I'm not that strong with Fi but, I can take a shot at what's going on here, with at least some of it:
    Tossing "stable mates", "give of memory", "awful curse", "crippling doubt" all connect in a spiderweb manner (very Ne-like) with a hidden white elephant sitting in the middle -- that this has something to do with a breakup, with the narrator in this case being in the less fortunate position. That these were brought together for the purpose of conveying a personal feeling-related matter means there was Fi behind the scenes painting the lines that Ne used to lay its connections.

    I believe that is how Ne + Ji works, Ne portrays and assumes that there are connections between different (otherwise non-obviously-connected) ideas, but the glue used to connect these ideas is painted with either Ti or Fi, and the two connect ideas in distinctly different manners--Fi will connect ideas if they have some kind of value-related similarity, and Ti will connect ideas if they have some kind of logical principle-related similarity. The logic-oriented interplay, Ne+Ti, will give way to lots of nerdy computer/tech geek acronyms and shorthand "index" words that are meant to refer to whole systems or worlds of ideas, the theory being that if you can use Ne properly when you read the "index" word or acronym, you can follow the rope down the rabbit hole and instantly begin to view (or recall) the whole system/world/etc. it's referring to. However if your Ti is lacking in skill, or far more likely, you just don't know enough about the different ideas at play or know about their connections, you might not see all the "connections" and it will leave you confused instead.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirilis View Post
    I believe that is how Ne + Ji works, Ne portrays and assumes that there are connections between different (otherwise non-obviously-connected) ideas, but the glue used to connect these ideas is painted with either Ti or Fi, and the two connect ideas in distinctly different manners--Fi will connect ideas if they have some kind of value-related similarity, and Ti will connect ideas if they have some kind of logical principle-related similarity.
    I think you nailed it. Here, what separates the cognition of an INTP and ENTP -- or an ENFP and INFP -- is simply the priority given to each variable. The introverted types would rest more heavily on glue, the extraverted on volume of ideas.

    That brings to mind a loose analysis I've made of Fe-driven lyrics versus Fi-driven lyrics, incidentally. When writing expressively and abstractly about love or other powerful emotions, there's a definite difference between Fe and Fi -- and the excerpt you have is clearly what I've come to expect as Fi, focused on the impression of the relationship rather than the relationship itself.

    Forgive us for the drift, Cascademn -- the silver lining is that a) this is really interesting, and b) I may have spoken too soon about cognitive functions' relevance to your type.

  3. #33
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Forgive us for the drift, Cascademn -- the silver lining is that a) this is really interesting, and b) I may have spoken too soon about cognitive functions' relevance to your type.
    Oh, I'm tickled by the turn this thread is taking!!! I find it very interesting as well.

    Related to b) - you've piqued my curiousity. Do you have new thoughts regarding my type? Or are you just now saying that cognitive functions ARE something to pay close attention to, alongside real-life feedback from others?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #34
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Oh, I'm tickled by the turn this thread is taking!!! I find it very interesting as well.

    Related to b) - you've piqued my curiousity. Do you have new thoughts regarding my type? Or are you just now saying that cognitive functions ARE something to pay close attention to, alongside real-life feedback from others?
    The latter. INFPs I've encountered have either been Enneagram Fours or Enneagram Nines -- in other words, moody types or peaceful, non-interventionist types. IJs are different, even in writing structure; from what I've gathered you have this sense about you.

  5. #35
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    The latter. INFPs I've encountered have either been Enneagram Fours or Enneagram Nines -- in other words, moody types or peaceful, non-interventionist types. IJs are different, even in writing structure; from what I've gathered you have this sense about you.
    Well, to keep things real, I have always typed as enneagram 4, and in reading its content relate most to it, although types 1, 5, and 9 are relatively prominent as well.

    Personally, I view myself as having some pretty deep wells of emotion, and I think I am pretty emotional - happy one day, rather melancholy/reflective the next. So I'm pretty in tune with my emotional state. Perhaps the distinction though is that I don't often externalize it to others -- so it isn't an obvious characteristic in real life. I think I come across as pretty even-keeled in real life, especially in a work environment. Probably a bit more flighty or expressive while socializing, but I imagine I still come across as rather....composed??? I'm not sure what other word would describe it.

    While I think I keep, and like, a lot of structure in my external environment, and like that organization, and stay on top of things, when it comes to life goals, I basically don't have any. I wrote about this in my blog, but I think I must be one of the least goal-oriented J's in existance. :-P

    All of that said....based on what I've learned in this thread, I can now see how Ni is my dominant function, and I have a large dose of Fe too. By definition that makes me INFJ -- and I can live with that!!! (I just have other functions that are equally or more high, so that's probably what adds the variety to my expression!)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #36
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think my own function order is Ti-Ni, so I can understand where you're coming from here. I also have problems accepting the MBTI function order as a black and white system.
    heh i thought i was the only one that thought of it that way. Ni-Ti here.

    why wouldn't someone be able to use two introverted functions more readily than an extroverted one?

    among one type (this now relates to the thread), there are infinitely many possible distributions of functions. INFJ just means you're an Ni dominant and you have Fe, Ti, and Se in there somewhere (most likely pretty close to the prescribed order, because there's a lot of synergy).

    i don't think not relating fully to profiles or other INFJs necessarily means you should question your type. so many different external standards and internal standards

    as for my personal opinion, i've never had the thought that you weren't an INFJ (and that's saying something). i'm not exactly sure though.

  7. #37
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    heh i thought i was the only one that thought of it that way. Ni-Ti here.
    I would imagine it's definitely possible. A person would strongly identify with being an Introvert in this case if the Ti was developed more than the Fe. This, I believe, would happen if you strongly prefer Introversion over Extraversion. Ti would get a better chance to develop than Fe.

    If you are confident that the Ni is stronger than the Ti, but the Ti exists that pretty much still seals the deal that you are an INFJ.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Personally, I view myself as having some pretty deep wells of emotion, and I think I am pretty emotional - happy one day, rather melancholy/reflective the next. So I'm pretty in tune with my emotional state. Perhaps the distinction though is that I don't often externalize it to others -- so it isn't an obvious characteristic in real life. I think I come across as pretty even-keeled in real life, especially in a work environment. Probably a bit more flighty or expressive while socializing, but I imagine I still come across as rather....composed??? I'm not sure what other word would describe it.
    That, I think, is the difference between INFPs and INFJs. In my experience, the mood swings of INFPs are much more pronounced (they're mercurial or withdrawn, depending on the individual personality) than those of INFJs (who simply appear subdued or else strained in their effort to appear genial); especially in mixed company.

    All of that said....based on what I've learned in this thread, I can now see how Ni is my dominant function, and I have a large dose of Fe too.
    Yes, and good of you to remind us of that while we continue to wander!

    By definition that makes me INFJ -- and I can live with that!!! (I just have other functions that are equally or more high, so that's probably what adds the variety to my expression!)
    INFJs are 24-karat nice, so there certainly isn't anything wrong with that.

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