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  1. #531
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ick, don't go there.

    You're not allowed to use Te if you're an INTP?
    Making an argument in a post where you lay out various steps is now grounds to dismiss an INTP read?
    That's unrealistic. How else can you make an argument?

    I have to say, if you also grow up in an environment that is antagonistic or seeks to devalue your opinion, you quickly pick up a Te-mentality in order to defend yourself, regardless of your type, at least if you're in the 'thinker' camp.

    (As one example from my personal experience, the conservative church values Te thinking and devalues Ti in an argument, because it likes clear and detailed "proof" of your position and doesn't like ambiguity or conceptual thought very much as a basis for faith. I realized why I felt so awful much of the time in that environment; and part of it was that I was being forced to Te my belief statements when I just don't work that way naturally.)
    This is precisely my experience. Before getting into type, most of my time was on a Christian debate board, and it is all Te-land. They can take scripture ["proof"]-texts and make the Bible say anything anyone could possibly want it to say. They treated it just like a jigsaw puzzle (an analogy for Te use) with each individual "verse" as a piece, yet if you just take things in context and look for underlying frameworks and principles, then things begin to make more coherent sense.
    And then growing up in an STJ environment, it was easy to learn and apply the argument skills. And then consider that Te is the "oppositional/backup" for Ti, Ne also seems to "project" it outward, it will be easy for the NTP to use Te. As I say, if you take ideas and theories apart, you have to put them back together again.
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  2. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I don't know if INTJs would go through such overkill in trying to get across their point...
    He's an INTP with an underdeveloped auxiliary process. I think it's funny.

    I agree with the people who say Magic Poriferan doesn't seem very T. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
    I don't wanna!

  3. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ick, don't go there.

    You're not allowed to use Te if you're an INTP?
    Making an argument in a post where you lay out various steps is now grounds to dismiss an INTP read?
    That's unrealistic. How else can you make an argument?

    I have to say, if you also grow up in an environment that is antagonistic or seeks to devalue your opinion, you quickly pick up a Te-mentality in order to defend yourself, regardless of your type, at least if you're in the 'thinker' camp.
    Also, if you are already a T, adapting to an antagonistic environment could skew your true type to seem more J than you are. An ENTP ends up looking like an ENTJ.

  4. #534
    Don't Judge Me! Array Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    He's an INTP with an underdeveloped auxiliary process. I think it's funny.
    I know, but nobody seems to believe me when I say that...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #535
    .~ *aĉa virino* ~. Array Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmatic View Post
    Also, if you are already a T, adapting to an antagonistic environment could skew your true type to seem more J than you are. An ENTP ends up looking like an ENTJ.
    well, at least in terms of Te expression.

    (The two ENTx types use different functions.)

    That's how you can tease out the difference.
    An ENTJ is Te + Ni + Se + Fi
    An ENTP is Ne + Ti + Fe + Si.

    An ENTP with Te forced on them could look like:
    Te + Ti + Fe + Si
    or
    Te + Ne + Fe + Si
    or some other weird combination.

    But I think "Te" forced on someone usually squelches out the fuzzier/softer functions first. Eric B seems to suggest this as well -- that the Ne gets supplanted or channels Te outwards, rather than existing as itself per se.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #536
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvereX View Post
    yeah
    as soon as i read that, i was like " wha ? "

    but.....
    subjective thinking could be equated to feeling-its more mystical than factual like Te

    Fi is like saying subjective-subjectivity

    thus, interchangeable

    just why it was not said about Fe and Te, i will never know
    well, that is until Ni comes out of nowhere wearing nothing but a cabana boy T-shirt and tells me
    Thinking is generally condsidered "objective", based on logic and facts, while Feeling is considered subjective "values".

    "extraverted attitudes" (outside use) is also considered "objective", while introverted attitudes are considered subjective, because they are taking place within the person. (For perception, the attitude is the "source" it is taken from, and for judgment, it is the "realm" it is used in).

    Sensing (concrete perception) is also considered more "objective", while iNtuiting (abstract) is considered subjective, because it involves the person drawing from patterns and stuff.

    I then came up with an idea of shorthanding the processes with "o" for "objective" and "u" for "subjective".

    Se objective data from objective source O/O
    Si objective data from subjective source O/U
    Ne subjective data from objective source U/O
    Ni subjective data from subjective source U/U
    Te objective judgment in objective realm o/o
    Ti objective judgment in subjective realm o/u
    Fe subjective judgment in objective realm u/o
    Fi subjective judgment in subjective realm u/u
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  7. #537
    Senior Member Array Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ick, don't go there.

    You're not allowed to use Te if you're an INTP?
    Making an argument in a post where you lay out various steps is now grounds to dismiss an INTP read?
    That's unrealistic. How else can you make an argument?

    I have to say, if you also grow up in an environment that is antagonistic or seeks to devalue your opinion, you quickly pick up a Te-mentality in order to defend yourself, regardless of your type, at least if you're in the 'thinker' camp.

    (As one example from my personal experience, the conservative church values Te thinking and devalues Ti in an argument, because it likes clear and detailed "proof" of your position and doesn't like ambiguity or conceptual thought very much as a basis for faith. I realized why I felt so awful much of the time in that environment; and part of it was that I was being forced to Te my belief statements when I just don't work that way naturally.)







    I think in writing the Ti is far more obvious. In person or in casual dialogues, usually the Ne is much more visible, and since the Ti is always processing new information, it's hard to want to commit externally to a particular argument (which keeps it hidden too).
    But why would an INTP use much Te in writing? One has all the time in the world to respond, and in general, writing leaves tons of space for expression of introverted functions.

    You could argue using several principles and frameworks, without ever fully mentioning all of them.

    If you feel so drawn to using Te in your writing, maybe you are a different type.


    In general, I must admit I'm very dissapionted by how people are falling for BW's nonsense. I read MP's two long posts, they provided an EXCELLENT explaination, and one that looked a lot more like Ti than anything BW has ever written. In fact, MP may be one of the few "INTP"s who actually is an INTP.

  8. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    But why would an INTP use much Te in writing? One has all the time in the world to respond, and in general, writing leaves tons of space for expression of introverted functions.

    You could argue using several principles and frameworks, without ever fully mentioning all of them. If you feel so drawn to using Te in your writing, maybe you are a different type.
    No, honestly, if you were brought up in a hostile environment, it filters into your writing. Were you brought up in a religious environment like I mentioned earlier? This was my experience directly: I felt like I had to "prove" my faith and would try to Te everything, get stuck in apologetic cycles, and generally feel shitty after awhile because it just was far too much detail and focus on external argument.

    And this was in my WRITING.

    It really gets in there and screws you up.

    (Can you imagine trying to force Ti concepts through Te writing? You have to be extremely detailed... but you still have that 'web / big picture" thing going. So there's no end to the detail you need... and realistically there is also no way to translate a mental model into 2d Te-style linear terms, although you try and try, so you always feel inadequate and like you're failing.

    True Te people don't care about a consistent big picture as much. They're more fine with choppy, little bullet-point proofs that only settle their particular point and then are just assumed to cover everything somehow. not as much need for nuance.)

    The writing I was not ashamed or conflicted over was far more Ti and/or Ni in nature.

    In general, I must admit I'm very dissapionted by how people are falling for BW's nonsense. I read MP's two long posts, they provided an EXCELLENT explaination, and one that looked a lot more like Ti than anything BW has ever written. In fact, MP may be one of the few "INTP"s who actually is an INTP.
    I guess that's your opinion.

    I've known BW for two years, and in a few other contexts and situations, so it doesn't appear to be nonsense to me. But you are entitled to your opinion.

    And I see the point being made by those discussing Magic's type. (Personally, I don't know him well enough to involve myself, but I see why they are saying what they are.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #539
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    No, honestly, if you were brought up in a hostile environment, it filters into your writing. Were you brought up in a religious environment like I mentioned earlier? This was my experience directly: I felt like I had to "prove" my faith and would try to Te everything, get stuck in apologetic cycles, and generally feel shitty after awhile because it just was far too much detail and focus on external argument.

    And this was in my WRITING.

    It really gets in there and screws you up.

    (Can you imagine trying to force Ti concepts through Te writing? You have to be extremely detailed... but you still have that 'web / big picture" thing going. So there's no end to the detail you need... and realistically there is also no way to translate a mental model into 2d Te-style linear terms, although you try and try, so you always feel inadequate and like you're failing.
    Wow, that explains a lot!
    Hence it's incredibly stressful and mentally exhausting. Why I had to take a break from the endless religious debating!
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  10. #540
    The Black Knight Array Domino's Avatar
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    I'm an ESTJ. WATCH OUT.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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