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  1. #4541
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I work for a system I don't like as well, but that doesn't mean I don't critique it and offer suggestions. I guess the difference is, I view myself as cooperating with the system rather than being in the system.
    So you're saying you feel like you're visiting the jail rather than being inside of it. Whereas, it is more pragmatic to say 'You are technically inside of the jail even if you are only a visitor. You're not a prisoner, you can leave if you want, but to say you aren't in jail at all isn't practical.' This is the way I see it. I do NOT cooperate with the system all the time.. I work within it. I don't follow all of the rules to a T, I just need to know what they are so that I know where the weaknesses are. This is just part of being an adult. You have to know what you have to work with.. You cannot cooperate with a system without playing a role in it. You ARE in the system, even if you don't want to be. You still have to realize that the entire fucked up system of healthcare in America is STILL affecting you even if you don't get sick and need the doctors much. You are in that system whether you choose to be or not. (Though, theoretically, you 'choose' to be in it since you're living here.)

    while I have no qualms about contributing my fair share of the work load agreed upon for my wages, it doesn't mean I feel responsible the results of the system as a whole unless it has to do with my position specifically (say, if I am the store manager rather than the cashier). I don't believe anyone has a moral responsibility to anything until they agree to it (for instance, deciding to have kids, agreeing to do a certain job or paying taxes because you have chosen to take advantage of government funded services)
    This is false though.. You ARE contributing to the system. You don't just 'get a pay check and do your job'. You are also contributing to taxes, the tax system, the corporate system, OSHA regulations, etc. So, unless you say, "Hey, citizens, I am suddenly interested in the environment and will not litter." you don't think anyone is obligated to clean up after themselves? Which, is honestly at least a little understandable.. But to say you only acknowledge things that immediately affect you and that you actively participate in is a bit childish. I think people have obligations that they don't even agree to. We have laws, and even if you don't like those laws, you're under their umbrella. There are litter laws in place even if you didn't start to care about the environment.

    It's really, really hard as an adult to just 'opt out' of things and still function in society. I don't at all like the gender bias of society, but it is hard to opt out of it in my job. I didn't join the army just to be told I can't get any cool jobs... but I didn't just rebel and say "Your system sucks! Go home Army, you're drunk!" and throw away my shot at an education just because of that.

    - in other words, you are a soldier; I am a mercenary. objectively, I can see the benefit of social unity (it makes things go smoother and alliances last longer), I can even understand how, on an emotional/spiritual level such unity can be deeply fulfilling for some people, but it's not for me. my contributions to society are going to be more indirect as the system itself is, in my mind, a means rather than an ends. while I believe both of our worldviews relating to society are mature, yours are mature in a more supergo STJ-ish fashion while mine are mature in more an Id NFP/NTJ-ish fashion
    Unity affects us all because we live in society. You could certainly opt to get rid of your internet, electricity, and get REALLY fulfilled by being alone and outside of this pathetic excuse for a working society. But that isn't really convenient for people. And that is what I mean. It's cool to say you're a mercenary, just opting into the jobs 'you want', but that's not REALLY how mercenary work goes. Desert Punk is a more accurate description of it. You do EVERY job that comes your way, whether it's glamorous or not. Whether it's what you saw yourself doing with your life, or not.

    The world is STJ-based. Coming at it from an NFP mentality may spice things up sometimes, but overall it just doesn't really work. Getting idealistic on people doesn't make them move. Throwing their own rules in their face does. I think idealistically of things all the time... How much I wish this, how much better if that.. but I'm not going to get the land I need by wishing and dreaming and telling the banks, "Sure, you can trust me banks, I'm a good citizen." I didn't work in their system, and because I didn't I got denied. None of my dreams, and all of my service and odd-ball jobs that I took matter to them. Only their rules and parameters.

    Those are NOT the only things, though, that matter to me. I will get my land regardless of their stupid system. I just won't get it right now.
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  2. #4542
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @kyuuei
    the fact that you say the world is STJ based is an indicator that that's a likely type for you. like I said, I'm aware of the fact that I'm in a system. I'm not some rebellious teenager trying to "sick it to the man", what I'm saying is, the system is not personally significant to me (it's economically significant to me, just as I am economically significant to it, but my ties are strictly business which can be broken and tied to a different system), which is why I made the analogy to a mercenary, who, contrary to your point, also take whatever jobs are thrown at them to survive (being a college student who went back to school after finding nothing but soliciting sales jobs, I'm well aware of what it is like to do jobs I might have initially thought "below me" because I was the only one around to do them)
    as this relates to ENFP vs ESTJ, yes, ENFPs can make peace with and work within a system, but rarely if ever will we do so out of preference. whether you're talking social systems, technical systems, etc, the ENFP is just not a naturally precise or systematic type and will instead prefer to dwell on more individualistic, creative topics. hierarchical structures, duty and group politics wear us out faster than a rice paper condom. I really cannot picture an ENFP being as dutiful and unity driven as you are.

    PS: the more I think about it. your posting style has consistently reminded me of @EJCC
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  3. #4543

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @kyuuei
    the fact that you say the world is STJ based is an indicator that that's a likely type for you. like I said, I'm aware of the fact that I'm in a system. I'm not some rebellious teenager trying to "sick it to the man", what I'm saying is, the system is not personally significant to me (it's economically significant to me, just as I am economically significant to it, but my ties are strictly business which can be broken and tied to a different system), which is why I made the analogy to a mercenary, who, contrary to your point, also take whatever jobs are thrown at them to survive (being a college student who went back to school after finding nothing but soliciting sales jobs, I'm well aware of what it is like to do jobs I might have initially thought "below me" because I was the only one around to do them)
    as this relates to ENFP vs ESTJ, yes, ENFPs can make peace with and work within a system, but rarely if ever will we do so out of preference. whether you're talking social systems, technical systems, etc, the ENFP is just not a naturally precise or systematic type and will instead prefer to dwell on more individualistic, creative topics. hierarchical structures, duty and group politics wear us out faster than a rice paper condom. I really cannot picture an ENFP being as dutiful and unity driven as you are.

    PS: the more I think about it. your posting style has consistently reminded me of @EJCC
    I think you imagine and pretend to a far greater sovereignty that is actually the case.

    In its original forms conservatism was more sociology than politics and it was right to make simple, succinct and critical analysis of that sort of individualistic thinking, sure its indulged collectively for its appeal but ultimately it would be dispensed with if it no longer served, there's lots of proofs of this point too.

    Take a very simple example like language, no one is inventing their own private language these days, if they do they are thought crazy and if they do there is no point unless the hope is to share it with another and have them adopt it, at which point it is no longer a private language anymore at all. That's just one example of society and social relatedness being onotological to individualism.

    That's society too, nots not even economic relations which are more unacknowledged and intractable even than social relations, Thatcher could say "There's no such thing as society" and people still debate what was meant but if anyone said "There's no such thing as the economy", well, no one would, you know?

  4. #4544
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @Elfboy, I agree that @kyuuei uses lots of Te, but at the same time, the way she uses it seems more Te-tertiary than Te-dominant. The way she tackles projects with such intensity and passion is almost completely unlike how I operate, and I think some of that has to do with the Dominant-function-as-a-lifestyle thing that I've talked about before. I see her using Te very intensely, but always as a tool, whereas I can't imagine NOT using it at any given point; by contrast, I use Ne as a tool, a lot of the time.

    You may also be reading some of her 8-ness as STJ-ness.

    Edit: I take it as quite the compliment that she and I vibe similarly. Thanks, Elfboy.
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  5. #4545
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the fact that you say the world is STJ based is an indicator that that's a likely type for you.
    Would you argue that it is more for the ENFP? I've frequently found myself 'strange' in society.. I feel a part of this world, as a whole, but for the purposes of society I don't at all feel like I am a harmonious addition to it. The army has been considered on this forum as, for the most part not argued, STJ.. and I had to find my niche in it as well. I definitely stand out, despite my efforts to blend in. I am far 'too happy and cheery' for my co-workers, and far too passionate and idealistic than my superiors would prefer. I like my job, and the army does need other perspectives than the majority, but it is definitely not one I blend well into.

    as this relates to ENFP vs ESTJ, yes, ENFPs can make peace with and work within a system, but rarely if ever will we do so out of preference.
    :/ I like how you're using 'we' as a way to subtly imply that I am no longer ENFP somehow. I work in the system because it is what I have to do, as I have said. I don't 'prefer' learning the rules of a system I hate just to play a game I don't like to play. If I had it my way, I'd tear the whole thing to shreds. As it stands, I pick and choose my battles.

    whether you're talking social systems, technical systems, etc, the ENFP is just not a naturally precise or systematic type and will instead prefer to dwell on more individualistic, creative topics.
    I would agree with that. *We* are not Naturally precise personalities. We are not very systematic on our own. And we Prefer to dwell on more individualistic, creative topics. But what we prefer as adults, and what we do, are two entirely different things. Being precise and systematic has its advantages, and learning to use those things to your advantage helps when trying to get to things you really want to do without frustrations.

    I still feel what you are seeing in me is adaptations I've learned from adulthood. I've had a lot of situations to force me into a very structured mindset from a very early age--caring for my sisters, overcoming my depression, joining the military, going to war, and caring for my parents. I was not this structured when I was younger. I was a dreamer, in my own head, just discovering what paganism was, and thinking that being an artist was a viable career for me even though I had none of the drive to make that happen. I was just as passionate, though. I can't say all ENFPs haven't had the troubles I have, but I'll bet they're also much more in tune with the tactics I use to get by in life if they have had these sort of situations and issues.

    hierarchical structures, duty and group politics wear us out faster than a rice paper condom. I really cannot picture an ENFP being as dutiful and unity driven as you are.
    Acknowledging something does not mean it is what drives me. I take care of my parents because I have no choice otherwise in the matter--that doesn't mean it inspires me somehow. I work in the system because I need to get something done, but that doesn't mean I subscribe to liking the system's inner mechanisms.

    I am driven. But my ambitions are not unity and duty. My dreams are aiming much higher on the charts than that.
    If you don't think I'm an ENFP, I can't stop you from thinking that way. But the people who know me IRL from this forum have agreed with my typing, I agree with it, and I have not had much evidence thrown my way to consider changing the notion for long. I did consider being a different type briefly on this forum, but it was rejected faster than moldy food.


    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Elfboy, I agree that Kyu uses lots of Te, but at the same time, the way she uses it seems more Te-tertiary than Te-dominant. The way she tackles projects with such intensity and passion is almost completely unlike how I operate, and I think some of that has to do with the Dominant-function-as-a-lifestyle thing that I've talked about before. I see her using Te very intensely, but always as a tool, whereas I can't imagine NOT using it at any given point; by contrast, I use Ne as a tool, a lot of the time.

    You may also be reading some of her 8-ness as STJ-ness.

    Edit: I take it as quite the compliment that she and I vibe similarly. Thanks, Elfboy.
    I think we do tend to have a lot in common, since I find you to be very sharp, level-headed, and introspective, things that I strive to be...
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  6. #4546
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @kyuuei
    fair enough
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  7. #4547
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @Elfboy, I agree that @kyuuei uses lots of Te, but at the same time, the way she uses it seems more Te-tertiary than Te-dominant. The way she tackles projects with such intensity and passion is almost completely unlike how I operate, and I think some of that has to do with the Dominant-function-as-a-lifestyle thing that I've talked about before.
    With that kind of intensity, you gotta figure there's some Feeling with it -

    - so how about Fe?



    I don't see any evidence for Fi, or Ne dominance - what I see is structured thinking that explains how people relate in society, gives the idea that it is simply pragmatic to live within the relation of society, and portrays the world with an "It is what it is" or "people are what they are" mentality. It looks forceful like Te stereotypes because it's a Judging function that's wielded with hardness, and she's got an Enneagram type that's in the gut center. Which I'd tentatively say looks like 1.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  8. #4548
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @kyuuei vibes ENFP enough to me that I've never questioned her type. Correct me if I'm wrong, kyuuei, but as far as I see it she's just particularly open, outgoing, and adventurous, and she emphasizes Te to facilitate her growth and progress. Te for an ENFP can act as a compartmentalization mechanism that distances Fi, so we're not overwhelmed with emotion and sentiment when we really want to take care of business. kyuuei pushes forwards and outwards more than many ENFPs, and towards objectives, so it follows that she would be particularly heavy in Je/Te usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander
    I don't see any evidence for Fi, or Ne dominance
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    You cannot cooperate with a system without playing a role in it. You ARE in the system, even if you don't want to be. You still have to realize that the entire fucked up system of healthcare in America is STILL affecting you even if you don't get sick and need the doctors much. You are in that system whether you choose to be or not. (Though, theoretically, you 'choose' to be in it since you're living here.)
    This demonstrates strong Ne. All outward things are linked.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    If I had it my way, I'd tear the whole thing to shreds. As it stands, I pick and choose my battles.
    This is Fi mediated by Te.

    As an aside, I like to look at people's avatars because they often demonstrate a "spirit" that is telling of their type, even when they're being questioned or purposefully trying to cover it up. I figure most people don't really think about type presentation when they select their avatar - generally we just think about a picture that we like, and that we feel represents us in some way. kyuuei's avatar is noticeably wipsy and "soft", though with a touch of practicality/earthiness, despite her outward robustness. It would be relatively surprising for an ESTJ 8 to choose that sort of wispyness to represent themselves, as that's a very strong and grounded personality, and relatively surprising for a Fe 1 to choose something more muted/drab in color and still relatively sketch-like in nature, as strong Fe types tend to be hyperaware of their emotional message outwards and 1s tend to lean towards precise representation (EJCC's is an awesome example - warm and full of creativity, like her, but still quite "clean" in its lines, actually). This is to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but it's still an interesting window into personality.

  9. #4549
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This demonstrates strong Ne. All outward things are linked.
    Actually it's one place where I'd point out Fe over Ne. Fe is about judging what is the relation between elements of the external world, in an objective context that people agree on. Ne looks like it's about viewing all the possible endpoints of what is there, hence the objectivity of it would be in the neutrality between views, and Ji/Je are needed to choose between them.

    This is Fi mediated by Te.
    No, I'd just point to frustration for it - 1 is a frustration type, and the connection to 7 might lend it a secret desire for chaos.

    Also a possible demonstration of inferior Thinking. Or Feeling, in a different context.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  10. #4550
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    As an aside, I like to look at people's avatars because they often demonstrate a "spirit" that is telling of their type, even when they're being questioned or purposefully trying to cover it up. I figure most people don't really think about type presentation when they select their avatar - generally we just think about a picture that we like, and that we feel represents us in some way. kyuuei's avatar is noticeably wipsy and "soft", though with a touch of practicality/earthiness, despite her outward robustness. It would be relatively surprising for an ESTJ 8 to choose that sort of wispyness to represent themselves, as that's a very strong and grounded personality, and relatively surprising for a Fe 1 to choose something more muted/drab in color and still relatively sketch-like in nature, as strong Fe types tend to be hyperaware of their emotional message outwards and 1s tend to lean towards precise representation (EJCC's is an awesome example - warm and full of creativity, like her, but still quite "clean" in its lines, actually). This is to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but it's still an interesting window into personality.
    Just want to point out that this seems to be a really strong Si assessment with Ne through Si along with feeling judgement and I would generally not expect to see this kind of analysis/perspective in an Ne dominant type whose inferior is Si, as it is this very perspective they try to avoid.

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