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Thread: Mistyped TypeCentral Members

  1. #1271
    Wurstverkäufer Array entropie's Avatar
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    God, I was searching for a lighter for my cigarette for half an hour now and then I found it. 4 matches in a package that must be a hundred years old.

    That was BW demistyfied
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  2. #1272
    Tenured roisterer Array SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Speaking to the bolded part: does this necessarily change the nature of the function itself? Does the mechanism of thinking change because of its direction? And if so, how? Which ways of thinking are extroverted, and which are introverted?

    It seems to me that the only time the distinction can be clearly made is when, say, an INTJ uses logic and people call it Te because MBTI says that it is so. But when an INTP uses logic (and it could be the exact same 'logic'...there are not seperate 'logics' for Ti and Te, and those who claim that there are fail to define exactly what the difference is), people call it Ti because that's what the MBTI function theory says it is. .
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think even you, BW, have experienced this confusion when people started calling you INTJ because your logic was somehow more "linear" than the supposedly mystical Ti logic.

    The essence of a function does not change. Thinking remains Thinking, it never gets mystical, however it may appear mystical to others.

    I never argued that the essence of a function changes by its direction. Direction is an additional component to the function. What this means is Introverted Thinking is most easily stimulated by ideas that are abstract in nature (such as mathematics and philosophy), yet Extroverted Thinking is more easily stimulated by problems that are ostensible in the external world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think even you, BW, have experienced this confusion when people started calling you INTJ because your logic was somehow more "linear" than the supposedly mystical Ti logic.
    Mystical logic is an oxymoron. Logic is completely objective. All of its procedures are always clearly outlined and are linear. As we have established earlier, Ti and Te are the same piece, therefore there is no reason to call Ti logic mystical.

    The difference between me and other Ti doms is simply that I am more comfortable voicing my thoughts than they are. Ti logic is deemed mystical by others because Tis often do not voice their thoughts in public as explicitly as Te doms.

    The salient difference between an extroverted mindset and an introverted mindset is that the former adapts to external environments and therefore becomes comfortable in them. An introverted mindset instead sticks to his modus operandi and does not become comfortable until the environment is more accomodating to him.

    We voice our thoughts in environments we are most comfortable in. Extroverted Thinker is comfortable in almost all environments because he adapts to them. Thus he consistently voices his thoughts.

    The Introverted Thinker does not in most cases. I do because the subjects I discuss here are those that I am comfortable with.

    An important note: Ti-Ne and Te-Ni at the essence are the same type, however, the way they relate to the external world is obviously different quite simply because they have different approaches to the external world.

    2 questions.

    1)What the hell is mystical logic?
    2) How did you figure I maintained that the essence of a function is changed by direction?
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  3. #1273
    Tenured roisterer Array SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by locke View Post
    I think entropie meant that the expression of the intuition was reserved. You spend much of the time using your intuition introvertedly, but then once you come to a conclusion you express it with your extroverted judgement. This is the jist of MBTI, is it not?
    My ideas are not a result of Intuition, they are a result of careful analysis.

    Analysis always held primacy over intuition in my thought. The Ni-Te mindset gravitates towards holding the two in reverse order.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #1274
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    Jen: ESFJ, certainty: moderate to high. xSFJ, certainty: very high.

    Extreme Feeling Judgment dominance of psyche, so obviously Feeling Primary. This leaves ESFJ, ISFJ, ENFJ, and INFJ.

    Intuition is sidelined...The lack of Intuition implies Sensing, and her motivation and style is like that of Sensors and SJs as a rule. Which leaves ESFJ and ISFJ.

    The importance of sociability, at least in intent, implies Extroversion, which leaves us with ESFJ.

  5. #1275
    Tenured roisterer Array SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    You are correct. I thought I would be going too far, and also rehashing old ground by defining the difference between introversion and extroversion and how it relates to function use.

    For the time being, I think it's acceptable to stack the traits. Person X is Introverted, and is Thinking/Sensing. Person Y is Extroverted, and is Intuition/Thinking, etcetera. To define a specific correlation is taking a very large step, and I hesitate because that's the kind of thing I was trying to get away from.!

    I certainly agree that assigning direction to each function appears fuzzy. However, this matter warrants further consideration.

    If we see that someone is clearly an Introvert, but also a clearly a Thinking type. This means that their primary modus operandi is Thinking and it operates most easily in the context of Introversion ( as we have established that Introversion represents what environment we are most easily energized in).

    Thus, because the two are highly emphasized, they are inseparable from one another.

    Proposition 1: Since Thinking is prevalent in the realm of Introversion, Feeling must be most supressed. (Principle of functional antithesis)

    Proposition 2: Since Thinking is a judging function it is antithetical with perceiving functions (principle of functional antithesis). Therefore a perceiving function most also be heavily supressed in the realm of Introversion.

    One may argue that because Thinking is the dominant function, it must be highly influential in the psyche of the Ti-Ne type.

    That is true.

    However, what we notice is that the Introverted Thinker is highly organized in his abstract Thinking, yet has a very low natural predilection towards organization of concrete, external entities. This means that his Thinking is not easily stimulated by the external, physical entities (therefore not akin to Te).

    Te however, still mus remain very strong in the psyche of the Thinker simply becuase this is a dominant function.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    Inevitably the Introverted Thinking type is forced to interact with the external environment. However, he cannot do so by means of the Thinking faculty because it is intensely focused on the inner life and is not easily responsive to external, concrete, physically oriented stimuli. Therefore the only other way the INTP may interact with the external environment is through the perceiving function.

    Thus, the salient perceiving function must necessarily be Extroverted. Once the element of Extroversion is engaged in the mind of the Introverted Thinking type, all Extroverted faculties are engaged.

    Once Extroverted Intuition is engaged, the very strong Extroverted Thinking could also be engaged.

    A more precise way to describe this phenomenon would be to simply claim that Extroverted Intuition has drawn Thinking outwards to the extent, or has made it possible for the Introverted Thinking to be engaged through direct external stimuli.

    Hence, what we have is not an inception of a new function that we may call Extroverted Thinking, but merely Thinking starting to turn outwards.

    To simplify this matter, I have before argued that Te is a dormant function, and is activated in the mind of the Ti-Ne type when Ne is stimulated.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Another important note is the salient perceiving function for the Introverted Thinking must be Extroverted and not Introverted (as we see Ne is the strongest perceiving function, not Ni). This is the case because the influence of perceiving functions has been supressed in the inner life of the Introverted Thinking type, and because Introverted Thinking by its nature is intensely focused on the inner life, the Introverted Thinking type is forced to deal with the external world by means of perceiving faculties.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  6. #1276
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    You are doing a decent job of describing Ti in the context of MBTI. If you would like to get to know my disagreement with these concepts, I think I've said just about everything I can in my function system thread.

    One point is that the INTP is more interested in Perception than in Judging (as slightly redefined), so I think it's a mistake to call the INTP Thinking Primary.

  7. #1277
    Tenured roisterer Array SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    You are doing a decent job of describing Ti in the context of MBTI. If you would like to get to know my disagreement with these concepts, I think I've said just about everything I can in my function system thread.

    One point is that the INTP is more interested in Perception than in Judging (as slightly redefined), so I think it's a mistake to call the INTP Thinking Primary.
    I am describing Ti from the standpoint of Jungian typology. I am not even clear on what MBTI is.

    What you seem to regard as the INTP is the Ni-Te type. There is no reason to call a Ti-Ne type a dominant perceiving type. The term dominant refers strictly to the primary function which is Thinking. It is a judging function, not a perceiving function.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #1278
    Blah Array Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The essence of a function does not change. Thinking remains Thinking, it never gets mystical, however it may appear mystical to others.

    I never argued that the essence of a function changes by its direction. Direction is an additional component to the function. What this means is Introverted Thinking is most easily stimulated by ideas that are abstract in nature (such as mathematics and philosophy), yet Extroverted Thinking is more easily stimulated by problems that are ostensible in the external world.



    Mystical logic is an oxymoron. Logic is completely objective. All of its procedures are always clearly outlined and are linear. As we have established earlier, Ti and Te are the same piece, therefore there is no reason to call Ti logic mystical.

    The difference between me and other Ti doms is simply that I am more comfortable voicing my thoughts than they are. Ti logic is deemed mystical by others because Tis often do not voice their thoughts in public as explicitly as Te doms.

    The salient difference between an extroverted mindset and an introverted mindset is that the former adapts to external environments and therefore becomes comfortable in them. An introverted mindset instead sticks to his modus operandi and does not become comfortable until the environment is more accomodating to him.

    We voice our thoughts in environments we are most comfortable in. Extroverted Thinker is comfortable in almost all environments because he adapts to them. Thus he consistently voices his thoughts.

    The Introverted Thinker does not in most cases. I do because the subjects I discuss here are those that I am comfortable with.

    An important note: Ti-Ne and Te-Ni at the essence are the same type, however, the way they relate to the external world is obviously different quite simply because they have different approaches to the external world.

    2 questions.

    1)What the hell is mystical logic?
    2) How did you figure I maintained that the essence of a function is changed by direction?
    1. No clue. It's just the overall impression I got (not from you) from others, and from certain function descriptions sites, when they tried to explain the difference between Te and Ti. Many seem to claim that Ti is more of a non-linear, intuitive type of logic (don't ask me to name names, I have no idea). I didn't say that you thought Ti was mystical.

    I mentioned it because I believe the confusion to be relevant to the motivation for changing the theory up.

    2. Well, if it isn't then we don't need to hang on to distinctions such as Ti and Te, or Ni and Ne. We need merely note that someone is either introverted or extroverted (by the E or I at the beginning of their type code) and this will tell us enough about the conditions under which the thinking or intuition function is used by that person (depending on which one is dominant). We won't need to bother ourselves over which observed behaviors count as Te, and which as Ti. Or with which subjects a Ti dom or Te dom would be most interested in. Or any other function.

    To answer your question specifically, though, you're right, you never said anything to that effect. I was carrying on my own argument that if the function isn't different because of its direction, then it is confusing to label and define them separately (and often in very different operational terms). And when the theory becomes more confusing, it becomes less useful. Therefore we would do well to drop the little "e's" and "i's" that get appended to the ends of functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am describing Ti from the standpoint of Jungian typology. I am not even clear on what MBTI is.

    What you seem to regard as the INTP is the Ni-Te type. There is no reason to call a Ti-Ne type a dominant perceiving type. The term dominant refers strictly to the primary function which is Thinking. It is a judging function, not a perceiving function.
    Yes, I'm also referring to Jungian functions. The functions used with MBTI.

    The closest thing I could come up with to describe INTP in Jungian functional terminology is: Ne-Ti, Introverted (Whereas the ENTP is Extroverted). But it takes the new system to describe it exactly as I see it.

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    Senior Member Array Eileen's Avatar
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    Risen, I suspect, is INFJ. I probably won't bother to substantiate that, though, 'cause it's time to go to work.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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