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  1. #21
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    My wife scored evenly on the "Devoted-Adventurous" scales on the Oldham test. So is she devoted, or is she adventurous? I have literally seen her mentally torn between caring for her family and her desire to seek adventure. She's extremely attached to her family, yet I've seen her having to rationalize the need to take care of them via, "I don't want to be seen as a bad mother." But the dull daily routine of it begins to wear on her after a while. As the description of the ESTP states, "They will become stifled and unhappy dealing with routine chores." She prefers leisure to housework, and wants to be complimented on the chores she does.

    My wife isn't a Thinker. As an Adventurous type, she doesn't really plan the adventure to any great degree, but prefers spontaneous activity that includes others. She doesn't intentionally or accidentally hurt other people's feelings. She'll talk to me about people who piss her off rather than confronting them. She talks about confrontation but it doesn't lead to anything.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #22

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    I don't think of ESTPs as thinkers. I don't mean that in an insulting sense. Of course they think and many are very intelligent, but they may be impatient with what you, an INTP, consider to be thinking. Certainly they use Ti to augment their dominant Se, but I think Ti can be a very instinctual, body-based function, particularly when used with Se.

    I think she's ESTP.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    I don't think of ESTPs as thinkers. I don't mean that in an insulting sense. Of course they think and many are very intelligent, but they may be impatient with what you, an INTP, consider to be thinking. Certainly they use Ti to augment their dominant Se, but I think Ti can be a very instinctual, body-based function, particularly when used with Se.

    I think she's ESTP.
    In my experience, ESTPs aren't very intelligent. But that's a side-issue. Ti for the ESTP type lends intellectual curiosity and introspective ponderings about life that usually play no serious role in the adventurous Se life-style.

    When analyzing an auxiliary function, it's best to think of it not so much as a slave to the dominant function but as an independent function, albeit one that is not as well developed as the dominant. The ESTP possesses the natural ability of "bodily or instinctive anticipation" based on many experiences of the same or similar types. This isn't a kind of thinking, it is a kind of body-based knowing. And however playful or spontaneous the ESTP seems to be, it is intended in all seriousness. Ti, being the auxiliary function, is in reality the playful, non-serious function, as is Ne for the INTP or Fi for the ESFP. At best, Ti engages with Se when it is used to reflect on the consequences of their activities, either in hindsight or in foresight.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    In my experience, ESTPs aren't very intelligent. But that's a side-issue. Ti for the ESTP type lends intellectual curiosity and introspective ponderings about life that usually play no serious role in the adventurous Se life-style.

    When analyzing an auxiliary function, it's best to think of it not so much as a slave to the dominant function but as an independent function, albeit one that is not as well developed as the dominant. The ESTP possesses the natural ability of "bodily or instinctive anticipation" based on many experiences of the same or similar types. This isn't a kind of thinking, it is a kind of body-based knowing. And however playful or spontaneous the ESTP seems to be, it is intended in all seriousness. Ti, being the auxiliary function, is in reality the playful, non-serious function, as is Ne for the INTP or Fi for the ESFP. At best, Ti engages with Se when it is used to reflect on the consequences of their activities, either in hindsight or in foresight.
    I disagree (to an extent). I guess ultimately it comes down to what you're defining as intelligence. ESTPs can be very shrewd, sharp, astute individuals.

    I don't think of the aux as a slave to the dominant. I think of it as an assistant and counterpart which ultimately defines, to some extent, how the dominant manifests.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    I disagree (to an extent). I guess ultimately it comes down to what you're defining as intelligence. ESTPs can be very shrewd, sharp, astute individuals.

    I don't think of the aux as a slave to the dominant. I think of it as an assistant and counterpart which ultimately defines, to some extent, how the dominant manifests.
    Intelligence is measured by IQ; shrewdness is for criminals, gamblers, etc.

    ESTPs are Thinkers, just as ESFPs are Feelers. So I agree in this general sense. Thinkers can neglect to include others and unintentionally step on their toes (or other body parts, as I've seen in the past). Feelers are kinder, gentler, more accommodating. Thinking and Feeling define the difference between tough-minded and tender-hearted types as defined by William James. -

    "The tough think of the tender as sentimentalists and softheads. The tender feel the tough to be unrefined, callous, or brutal."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #26

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    IQ measures abstract reasoning ability. What are your thoughts on multiple intelligences? i.e. Gardner's theory first proposed in the early 80s?
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  7. #27
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Some of the ESTP description fits her, such as "The ESTP gets bored with classes in which they feel they gain no useful material which can be used to get things done." But for my wife, she's not thinking about school in terms of "useful material to get things done," she's thinking in terms of ditching class. Period.
    That could still be ESTP if she doesn't think there is anything useful to be gained. If she thinks it's all a waste of time, then that's a very ESTP attitude. I know one ESTP who studied in a pretty disciplined way in college, and another one who virtually never studied, instead spending time doing stuff and working.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    That could still be ESTP if she doesn't think there is anything useful to be gained. If she thinks it's all a waste of time, then that's a very ESTP attitude. I know one ESTP who studied in a pretty disciplined way in college, and another one who virtually never studied, instead spending time doing stuff and working.
    I can always go through every sentence in the ESTP descriptions one at a time, if you like.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #29
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    IQ measures abstract reasoning ability. What are your thoughts on multiple intelligences? i.e. Gardner's theory first proposed in the early 80s?
    I don't mind different kinds of intelligence, but I also don't mind being old-school.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #30
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Intelligence is measured by IQ; shrewdness is for criminals, gamblers, etc.

    ESTPs are Thinkers, just as ESFPs are Feelers. So I agree in this general sense. Thinkers can neglect to include others and unintentionally step on their toes (or other body parts, as I've seen in the past). Feelers are kinder, gentler, more accommodating. Thinking and Feeling define the difference between tough-minded and tender-hearted types as defined by William James. -

    "The tough think of the tender as sentimentalists and softheads. The tender feel the tough to be unrefined, callous, or brutal."
    Here I have to say that your INTP type may be disadvantaging you. My closest friend is an INTP, and he consistently fails to see what a small role intelligence plays in most fields because it is his strong point, Ti. I overrate Ni, myself, so I am always thinking about the importance of holistic understanding and integration into other systems in whatever I study (including MBTI), when in reality this is irrelevant to most people unless they are trying to do original work, which is almost no one. But I value Ni anyway because I like it and I want to look at things that way.

    Just as your Ne is a slave to your Ti, the Ti of your wife (if she's ESTP) is a slave to her Se. The difference is that if you work in a field where you can use your Ti, you are able to avoid using Ne for other purposes. The INTP I know who is a mathematician and a computer programmer talks of nothing but the intellectual implications of things, and consistently forgets that most people use a combination of other skills to get places. So, when he looked into MBTI, he decided that the Forer effect made it too unreliable to be that interesting as a system, and since he wasn't that interested in practical typing of people, he abandoned the system. He couldn't overlook theoretical problems in favor of practical considerations. He's still pretty young, of course, but possibly this is a characteristic of INTPs that lasts throughout life.

    However, your wife might have had to exercise Ti for other purposes in school, for example. The world can force people to develop functions in ways they might not prefer. However, if you are fortunate enough to be in a position to live out of your dom function and aux function in a more or less pure fashion, it will be hard to realize this.

    Shrewdness is what matters more in nearly everything once you pass a certain IQ threshold, depending on the field or task.

    The fact that your wife has to work at being a mother strongly suggests ESTP to me. ISFP or ESFP would not parent that way. The ESTP mother I know acted very much in that way; she didn't want to be a bad mother, but she hated staying around the house.

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