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  1. #41
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Yeah I saw the 9 thing too. I could even see 9 over 4.
    Vas seems artistic and idiosyncratic. I just feel like if Vas was a 4, she may possess a stronger drive to make her feelings manifest in a way that would clearly define who she believes she is in contrast with others. She makes a substantial impact on this forum, and she has that "unheard cry in the woods" thing going for her that's textbook Jungian Ni and 4-ish in some ways, and even though it seems to come from a very subjective, personal headspace, she seems altogether caught up in the object to the point where it doesn't really seem like the typical E4 self-analysis.

  2. #42
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Vas seems artistic and idiosyncratic. I just feel like if Vas was a 4, she may possess a stronger drive to make her feelings manifest in a way that would clearly define who she believes she is in contrast with others. She makes a substantial impact on this forum, and she has that "unheard cry in the woods" thing going for her that's textbook Jungian Ni and 4-ish in some ways, and even though it seems to come from a very subjective, personal headspace, she seems altogether caught up in the object to the point where it doesn't really seem like the typical E4 self-analysis.
    Ever since beginning a dialogue with the lovely senza about 9 I've been so interested in how 9 and 4...why 9 and 4 are like the photo negative of each other...and I'm trying to figure out why this would happen...these two points are kinda amazing to me really and I like what you say here...

  3. #43
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Oh and @Ginkgo

    while Vasilisa's avatar seems very Ni 4 to me...your avatar seems very 9w8 so you're getting retyped now haha




    edit: I don't even know how many times I just had to edit this tiny post omfg

  4. #44
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ever since beginning a dialogue with the lovely senza about 9 I've been so interested in how 9 and 4...why 9 and 4 are like the photo negative of each other...and I'm trying to figure out why this would happen...these two points are kinda amazing to me really and I like what you say here...
    They're both withdrawn and they can look almost identical but there's a reason they're almost opposite of each other on the enneagram. They have reverse ways of dealing with idealism, realism, hope, and doubt. It's almost like the 9 acknowledges the way things are and finds a way of settling, where the 4 would deny the way things are and aim for an ideal. While I don't think that Vasilisa is just content with everything that transpires under her watch... There's a level of emotional stuffing I wouldn't expect from a 4.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ever since beginning a dialogue with the lovely senza about 9 I've been so interested in how 9 and 4...why 9 and 4 are like the photo negative of each other...and I'm trying to figure out why this would happen...these two points are kinda amazing to me really and I like what you say here...
    4EI
    9II

    4 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Extrinsic Center
    9 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Intrinsic Center
    (the other Intrinsic Manifestation is e5)

    So, yeah, it's because they're both Intrinsic Manifestations of their respective centers.

    And I associate 4s so much with the Intrinsic Manifestation (and so do others, I believe), it's almost hard to remember they come from the Extrinsic Center. But then you remember that they are indeed Image-focused, in a way that 9s surely are not (at least, not just the 9 part of 9s [if they have a strong Image-fix, then that image focus will obviously manifest as well {via the image fix}]).

  6. #46
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    They're both withdrawn and they can look almost identical but there's a reason they're almost opposite of each other on the enneagram. They have reverse ways of dealing with idealism, realism, hope, and doubt. It's almost like the 9 acknowledges the way things are and finds a way of settling, where the 4 would deny the way things are and aim for an ideal. While I don't think that Vasilisa is just content with everything that transpires under her watch... There's a level of emotional stuffing I wouldn't expect from a 4.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    4EI
    9II

    4 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Extrinsic Center
    9 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Intrinsic Center
    (the other Intrinsic Manifestation is e5)

    So, yeah, it's because they're both Intrinsic Manifestations of their respective centers.

    And I associate 4s so much with the Intrinsic Manifestation (and so do others, I believe), it's almost hard to remember they come from the Extrinsic Center. But then you remember that they are indeed Image-focused, in a way that 9s surely are not (at least, not just the 9 part of 9s [if they have a strong Image-fix, then that image focus will obviously manifest as well {via the image fix}]).
    So interesting to me. Thank you. *absorbing this*

  7. #47
    A Gentle Whisper ~MS*ANGEL~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    4EI
    9II

    4 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Extrinsic Center
    9 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Intrinsic Center
    (the other Intrinsic Manifestation is e5)

    So, yeah, it's because they're both Intrinsic Manifestations of their respective centers.

    And I associate 4s so much with the Intrinsic Manifestation (and so do others, I believe), it's almost hard to remember they come from the Extrinsic Center. But then you remember that they are indeed Image-focused, in a way that 9s surely are not (at least, not just the 9 part of 9s [if they have a strong Image-fix, then that image focus will obviously manifest as well {via the image fix}]).
    Hmm... interesting points made. Thanks for sharing!
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  8. #48
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Oh and @Ginkgo

    while Vasilisa's avatar seems very Ni 4 to me...your avatar seems very 9w8 so you're getting retyped now haha




    edit: I don't even know how many times I just had to edit this tiny post omfg
    Growing up, all the kids wanted to be nurses, firefighters, soldiers, policemen, and doctors.

    And I just wanted to be Godzilla.

    Is that too much to ask?!?!?!?!

  9. #49
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    So interesting to me. Thank you. *absorbing this*
    Also, this link: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/me...p#.U11oBvldWGU (requires registration, but is free, and I only occasionally get an email from them)

    The principal reason these types may be confused is that they are both withdrawn types. (PT, 433-36). Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.

    Both types can therefore be shy, absent-minded, confused, and detached from the real world. The difference is that Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas Fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain. (In the end, that may add up to quite a lot.) Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life.
    In other words, 4s are kind of always undergoing an existential crisis. Their art is aimed in part at resolving these perceived issues. 9s are very much the opposite, in that their coping mechanism is to believe that everything is just fine, even (and especially) when it isn't. 4s can hide from their emotions just as much as 9s can, but they don't do it nearly so often. If a 4 is hiding from emotions, they're down in the very unhealthy levels; average and healthy 4s engage in their emotions fairly regularly.

    4s tend to relish being different, while 9s focus on bridging the gaps between differences. Note one of the things Vas says makes her angry, namely people not making the effort to listen to her when she's saying something important. That's not a 4 concern, that's a 9 concern, especially when that's just about all she can come up with. 4s can find lots of things to be angry about. Even among the healthier types, there is a degree of envy, a degree of "the grass is always greener." 9s, on the other hand don't get worked up about very much at all. BUT, when a 9 has decided to expend energy on an issue, failing to resolve that issue is deeply frustrating (it's the reason they default to not getting worked up in the first place). Vas expressed her anger very much in this way.

    But one might say, "Vas is looking for more typological input. Look at all those past links. This is clearly someone seeking to determine her own identity." Yes, type 4s tend to use typologies to help discover themselves and their identities, often relying upon them too strongly. I don't think that's the case, here. The video she links is from 2011, and she's looking for input on Enneagram. Here she is in 2014, still looking for input on Enneagram. There are two Enneagram types that tend to identify with multiple Enneagram descriptions, 9 and 6. *I* had issues with Enneagram until I realized that it wasn't typing personality, but neuroses, which made type 9 clear for me.

    In the end, of course, it's for her to figure out. I much prefer to explain the basis of the typology and let people find themselves within that (clarified) framework, than tell them what their type is. There's no way Vas can convey her entire personality over the internet, but it's fairly easy to explain the typological criteria over the internet.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    *I* had issues with Enneagram until I realized that it wasn't typing personality, but neuroses, which made type 9 clear for me.
    *thinks back to that thread oh so long ago in which he tried to convince uumlau that there is indeed value to the enneagram*

    *sheds a tear*

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