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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I assume by this you mean that you don’t put your emotions out everywhere you either channel it or alternatively only reveal this side to those who are close to you? Because that is extremely Alpha, if you read Gulenko’s group perceptions you will find them labelled as “shallow,” they rarely express emotions especially disruptive ones in group settings; feeling that they don’t have the right (Se), or the moral imperative (Fi).
    I know you didn't address that part to me but I'd like to know about the opposite of this; typically what quadra or function is it if someone doesn't really think about the right to express emotions, with bad control over when to express them?... because that's me, the only thing making me at least try and delay expression of strong negative emotions somewhat if I get aware that some people might think bad of me, in certain social settings. But even that consideration doesn't always surface.


    That’s JCF masquerading as socionics, a IEIs Se motivations remain the same regardless of how effective they are at Se. IEIs particularly Ni subtype are emotionally explosive individuals, the less developed ones tend to have horrible control and unleash it willy nilly think Fiona Apple. At the other end of the spectrum, an IEI will carefully express emotions to control an environment. But no matter which way you swing it they are very expressive, because emotional expression is a very useful tool to have.
    Heh you later say that F types have control over how to use feelings. So then even F types can be undeveloped yeah? How are undeveloped F types different from T types in terms of this?


    On further consideration I have decided this definition of IEI SLE duality is completely useless. One; SLEs are not, “big dreamers” that is the purview of Ne leads, versus Ni leads who are long term dreamers, SLEs really struggle with both. Secondly it’s so vague it could be applied to IXXp EXXp relationships, hell it could apply to IXXx EXXx relationships. I’m blaming it on a bad machine translation.
    If you notice I already explained above that that desc of IEI/SLE duality doesn't make sense to me.

    I can confirm I struggle with the dreaming thingie. It's not to say it's not great to have big dreams and put them into reality but to get the long term big dreams and especially getting them fleshed out, I think some Ni is needed for that. That's my experience anyway... Am I making sense to you here? :P


    If I remember correctly and I am rusty at enneagram, a five under stress disintegrates to a seven, they essentially become terrified that they are incompetent and cannot deal with reality. They absorb copious amounts of theoretical data in the hopes of overcoming this dread, mental avarice. A healthy five becomes an expert in whatever field they wish; having learnt how to take care of themselves. In my mind that really does sound like Alpha NTs getting a handle on the Id Block.
    Why can't that data be Te for e.g. an ILI? So I still really don't see five as exclusive to alpha NT...

    What is this about getting a handle on the Id block? I have never heard about this being included in the development of socionics type. Where did you read about it?


    Ah I missed that, Beta STs are quite bad at image building. It requires an intricate understanding of group dynamics (FeSe), and the long term vision to see its usefulness (Ni). In LSI you will see next to no image building, longterm planning they can do, but social interaction really isn't their strong point. SLEs will often try to craft an image, but they vastly overestimate their skills and subtlety. To the outside world they usually just end up looking like self-absorbed braggarts, always having to be the centre of the story, the victor, the hero. The smart SLE often realise that the best way to craft an image is by doing what they do best practical ambition, let their work speak for them.
    Thanks yeah this makes sense, I relate to this pretty well. I'm kind of between LSI and SLE here.


    I think the idea of a LSI sp first is probably a common variant. SLE I would say it would be less common, but at the same time not impossible. A Beta NF Sp first, is just such a contradiction, it would end up making all of the Beta NF strengths fall on their head. The Beta NFs are the social butterflies; the Beta STs supply the logistics and drive.
    I was asking about soc-last, that can be either sp-first or sx-first.

    I'm going to say it sounds so boring to just have the role of supplying logistics. :P

    What kind of "drive" did you mean? Motivation?

    Anyway the reason I asked about this... I really think I'm soc-last but sometimes I get this envious of people who are good at the social stuff and image thingies. I mean I don't care about trying to craft some refined persona, I wouldn't know how I'd go about being refined :P and it'd be too limiting for my natural tendencies, but I still easily notice if it someone else has that sort of thing going on. Social influence, control over the dynamics and a refined image. It's cool. Otoh I'm kind of feeling antagonistic about it at the same time, that's why I used the word "envious". Soc-last people are supposed to be really unaware of these things... Is this just a soc-last Beta then or I'm not soc-last and it's just that I'm simply not good at NF things? Can you even make sense of what I'm talking about here?


    Alpha naiveté wins the day; they almost never manage to pick up on the image manipulation of the Beta NFs. when the cage match starts they do one of three things; one they avoid the whole shambles, two if they know or like the participants they will pull some sort of comic relief try to ease tensions, or three being confused by the group dynamics wander in an give a speech on individualism.
    Lol. OK, one last thing, how does a Beta typically react to the situation if otherwise being an outsider with regard to the participants of the "cage match"?


    Of all the Quadras the Betas are the least concerned with being authentic, hence why they irritate the Deltas so much. Betas NFs really do struggle with image issues often times it can become completely detached from reality; actually I might use this to show you a better example of IEI SLE duality. When a IEIs image starts to get so detached an SLE who is a master of objective reality will essentially pull the IEI up on this behaviour. Now if the IEI is in a healthy state of mind; they will correct it to align with their current environment. On the other hand if they are of an unhealthy state of mind, this approach will cause the IEI to react extremely negatively quite often explosively so.

    Stratiyevskaya has an excellent, albeit negative example of this:
    This is an interesting analysis of IEI/SLE duality. Thanks. Definitely very far from the idealized bullshit Makes a loooooot more sense tbh. Have you got some more examples of this IEI/SLE duality?


    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Muted as in my personal presence is muffled. Think of a sheet over a lamp. People from ventrilo who are familiar with me might be able to confirm that my voice is emotive but my aura is weak. Creative expression is great for the emotional self which is probably why it was easier for me to learn. Expression of the vital self is something I have yet to learn. You might have noticed I used the word "lifeless" in that thread.
    I'm not sure what exactly you mean by lifeless. Do you feel too void of emotions? Too dispassionate? Or got emotions internally but no way to express them? Or this is something else entirely? I'm not even sure what you mean by vital self tbh. Can you explain that a bit? Sorry, I may not have read everything in your self-description carefully so if you already explained this, just point me to that part in your posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    On the other hand being filled with emotional expressions, yet being unable to properly express them is actually a sign of Fe in its suggestive form.
    Then do Fe suggestive types "improperly" express them or not at all? Or how do those types manage to get these emotions "released"?


    Heaven save me from Se polr; in a forum that currently has such topics as “rimming”, “when did you lose your virginity”, and “where have you gone at it outside”, trust me when I say that wasn’t even close to being imposingly raw. I think that it was an excellent analysis of yourself; you should be proud that you could stare into the mirror so, not many have the guts for it.
    Lol I would agree. Both on how it it wasn't "crazy raw" and on how it was a pretty good analysis.

    Btw. I just skimmed it but I want to add that I saw more Si than Ne in there and more Fe than Ti. I dunno if that means anything in that context Where do you see Ti-leading for OP? Just simply the nice analysis / description? I didn't see it as very Ti or anything, just someone who's observed themselves for a while.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    @infinity-

    Dr Mobius is commenting on the Ti here vs the SF there. I intentionally didn't Ti that thread for personal reasons on page 4. What he's pointing out altogether is again my overall lack of Se. That thread wasn't a conscious analysis as much as it was (imo) a hazy fact-spitting.

    The vital self is the instinctual aspect of the self as distinct from the emotional and intellectual aspects.

    Chronic dispassion -> intellectualization -> over-imagination = neglected instinctual self, which people see as low-key or calm even if the emotions are very active.

    For the record, I've come a long way since those 4 years ago in honoring my instinctual self. I just haven't got to the point where I can extrovert my will in order not to seem the "calm" people apparently keep seeing me as.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Dr Mobius is commenting on the Ti here vs the SF there. I intentionally didn't Ti that thread for personal reasons on page 4. What he's pointing out altogether is again my overall lack of Se. That thread wasn't a conscious analysis as much as it was (imo) a hazy fact-spitting.
    So how often do you see yourself doing Ti?

    Lack of Se, yeah, I can't comment on if it's Se-PoLR or Se-DS/suggestive or just Se-ignoring function.

    Though I recall now that you mentioned you have a hard time keeping focused on whatever you're doing as you keep going into your head. That does sound like low S overall.

    Hazy fact-spitting? You did seem more self-aware in that thread of yours, than me. Trust me on that Though I'm improving on that...


    The vital self is the instinctual aspect of the self as distinct from the emotional and intellectual aspects.
    Ah OK.


    Chronic dispassion -> intellectualization -> over-imagination = neglected instinctual self, which people see as low-key or calm even if the emotions are very active.
    So you are usually dispassionate?


    For the record, I've come a long way since those 4 years ago in honoring my instinctual self. I just haven't got to the point where I can extrovert my will in order not to seem the "calm" people apparently keep seeing me as.
    Why is it important for you to not be seen so "calm"?

  4. #44
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    @bold: Yes, that's exactly it.

    Wanting to see the world was about a need for an open space that would counterbalance the enclosure of my mind - for the above reason. It's also specifically social ambition that I'm lacking in. Social ambition ironically conflicts with my ambitions.
    Sa souvraya niende misain ye; I am lost in my own mind, this is one of the issues Alphas face, being the most detached from reality, the most childlike. A very common practice on clashing badly with reality is to withdraw into the mind, to a place where things make sense. Actually thats a thought what exactly are your ambitions, if you don't mind me asking?

    Lol. This can happen? The thought of my sociotype and mbti type being mutual inverse is so trippy.

    If I'm really an ISFJ then LII would clarify quite a bit for me. But myself as a Ti dom... Are you sure?
    Honestly not really all that confident, I mainly put it out there too see what your reaction would be. To see whether my thoughts on you were actually measuring reality. The thing is I am quite confident you are an Alpha, I am 80% sure you are an Alpha Introvert, and I’m 50/50 over SEI and LII. The thing is you look like a SEI who has a really thick LII coating over top, or a LII with a SEI coating over top. Interestingly enough you could be the sort of SEI I expect to see. I actually have a pet theory about it, but it’s probably a bit crackpot so I’ll put it under a spoiler.



    I identify so much with being Perception dominant. Isn't socionics Ne concerned with catalyzing change in the environment? I am almost totally oblivious & indifferent to mine.
    It is as a leading function, as a creative it is usually specifically applied, a narrowed Ne.


    Feels like my type must be hiding in a plot twist worthy of Shyamalan, all these haphazard distractions for rules.
    I don’t think we have quite reached such embarrassing portions yet

    Earlier in the thread I mentioned my current view on intratype structure is that it's 'lateral-simultaneous'. In other words, free form (relatively non-hierarchical) with the sole order imposed being Lead function values. Not sure how this would line up with Jung's views on individuation. Again it all comes back to question 3 in the OP. What I'm reading at least on the web doesn't seem to answer that question well enough. Growing dizzy.
    Lateral simultaneous, I like this it is well phrased.

    Unfortunately I know for a fact socionics doesn’t have the answer to that question, its one I have been asking myself as well. Self-actualisation of any form in socionics is a fringe theory, the fact it flies in the face of duality I suspect plays no small part in this.
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Eric B can I ask you what an ISFJ with a strong shadow might look like? Can someone realistically achieve individuation before age 30 or does the enneagram type simply exert a lot of influence over functional development patterns?
    I'm reshaping my understanding of "Shadow" in terms of functions. It's really all about "complexes", as I explain here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ad.php?t=69138
    These are almost like separate "I"s that the ego uses, and some of those complexes seem to connect with the different functions, based on the dominant and auxiliary the ego has set up (after all, the "other six" are really just reflections of the first two).

    So "an INFJ with a strong shadow" might refer to someone with a sense of negation from having a one sided dominant, so the Witch/Senex constellates. This will likely show up as someone so fixed on what's familiar (overdominating dominant), and that they know based on this, so it's as if their auxiliary "tunnels" of you will, to the dominant attitude from the opposite one, so you see "SiFi" instead of SiFe. Since Fi is introverted, and this is how they see the situation, and not some "skill" they "use", you might not "see" anything. What they communicate might reflect it, though since "feeling" in either attitude is about the "personal or impersonal", you might just see another Feeling judgment, though very negative.
    I don't think this is something that continuous that they're "using Fi" all the time (just like that "tertiary loop" business). But I guess, if taking let's say, a cognitive process test, and the ego state associated with the problem has been on their mind a lot, they might score high on Fi.

    If you're in a state where your ego feels threatened with destruction a lot, the Demonic Personality might constellate. This is, likely, usually more about traumatic stuff, but it can also be projected onto those who you see (real or imaginary) posing a threat.
    Again, you might not necessarily "see" anything, but the person will turn to conceptual universal patterns they normally don't consider in a very defensive way.

    As far as individuation; that is not something anyone ever really "reaches". It's like an ideal goal, where you've resolved all the polarities of the ego. (Still trying to completely understand this). It would usually be something you move toward in the afterlife, and 30 is too young for that. I've heard that severe traumatic events (and also shamanic initiation) could cause a rapid ego breakdown and reassemblage that would be like individuation, but I don't know much about that. I don't think it would be about "using shadow functions", "being 'strong' in all eight", etc. but rather having more of an awareness of the unpreferred perspectives.

    As for Enneagram, I like to think that correlates directly to Temperament and Interaction Style somehow (perhaps in a blurred way since both the "wing" and "trifix" systems limit on what can be blended with what). Like those whose Interaction Style corresponds to Choleric will often be 8, and Phlegmatics will be 9, etc.

    I see it's been practically tacked onto type, like a fifth variable, but I don't think it would affect functional development.
    Both ISFJ and INFJ would likely often be 2, 4, 6, maybe 1, and possibly 9. (they can even be 5).
    INTP comes out as 5 a lot, but also 4 and 6 (same Interaction Style as ISFJ; that's another way the two types are similar, besides just the functions). Behind the Scenes can be either Phlegmatic, or fifth temperament Supine (which would be very 6, and also maybe 2 or 4). For INTP's, Phlegmatic will be more "typical", while Supines (like me, Such Irony and likely Jennifer), may seem more Feelerish, and possibly ISFJ or INFP. ISFJ would fit the Supine profile better, and the Phlegmatic version of the type might seem less openly Fe-like.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    @Eric B Wow, lots of food for thought. Will be considering this for a bit. Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    So how often do you see yourself doing Ti?
    Not sure. In order of processes I might rank myself Si=Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Se. I think it's tertiary inflation.

    Lack of Se, yeah, I can't comment on if it's Se-PoLR or Se-DS/suggestive or just Se-ignoring function.
    In the end, I'm still going to try for more Se. Will, vibrance, presence, spontaneity, a claim to your own space in the collective space - all these are invaluable. There's a clear frustration there about not always being able to get and stay out of my head for too long - and the funny part about it is that even the frustration will be filtered through some life-zapping tunnel of dissection before I can express it otherwise.

    Again it takes away from the purity of things in their natural state. To refine even the things that should be 'crude' is to drain them of their original distinction; turn them 'lifeless'. A description of the thing is not the thing itself, right? It's this sense of artifice that follows from chronic intellectualization which can lead to the feeling of being trapped in your head; of being made lifeless yourself. I phrase this passively because my 'intellectualization' is involuntary. So I'm just striving to connect to things in a more direct and natural and spontaneous way. What stands in any case is that I'm in need of a Sensing that does apprehend directly.

    So you are usually dispassionate?
    If it's only dispassionate as opposed to unemotional, I'll say yes.

    Why is it important for you to not be seen so "calm"?
    It's alright to be seen as calm, it's only that in general, perceptions tend to go hand in glove with expectations. Expectations can feel like implicit rules I'll have to negotiate, especially if they don't match who I really am, so I'm in the habit of checking impressions against actualities to see whether a given expectation is something I'm comfortable having on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Sa souvraya niende misain ye; I am lost in my own mind, this is one of the issues Alphas face, being the most detached from reality, the most childlike. A very common practice on clashing badly with reality is to withdraw into the mind, to a place where things make sense. Actually thats a thought what exactly are your ambitions, if you don't mind me asking?
    This could be me. Bolded is a little personal. I think I'd be embarrassed to say.

    Laughed at loud at the bolded. That's too bad about duality being considered only interpersonally.


    I don’t think we have quite reached such embarrassing portions yet

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Not sure. In order of processes I might rank myself Si=Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Se. I think it's tertiary inflation.
    Which Si is that? MBTI? Socionics Si is very much something else.


    In the end, I'm still going to try for more Se. Will, vibrance, presence, spontaneity, a claim to your own space in the collective space - all these are invaluable. There's a clear frustration there about not always being able to get and stay out of my head for too long - and the funny part about it is that even the frustration will be filtered through some life-zapping tunnel of dissection before I can express it otherwise.

    Again it takes away from the purity of things in their natural state. To refine even the things that should be 'crude' is to drain them of their original distinction; turn them 'lifeless'. A description of the thing is not the thing itself, right? It's this sense of artifice that follows from chronic intellectualization which can lead to the feeling of being trapped in your head; of being made lifeless yourself. I phrase this passively because my 'intellectualization' is involuntary. So I'm just striving to connect to things in a more direct and natural and spontaneous way. What stands in any case is that I'm in need of a Sensing that does apprehend directly.
    This really sounds like you're Se dual seeking in socionics.

    Maybe the clue is in your life so far... have you for some reason been living as an extreme introvert without any needed outside influence? Living in the wrong environment? Sorry if I'm totally wrong on this one lol


    If it's only dispassionate as opposed to unemotional, I'll say yes.
    What is the difference to you?


    It's alright to be seen as calm, it's only that in general, perceptions tend to go hand in glove with expectations. Expectations can feel like implicit rules I'll have to negotiate, especially if they don't match who I really am, so I'm in the habit of checking impressions against actualities to see whether a given expectation is something I'm comfortable having on me.
    What kind of expectations, do you mind giving some real life examples?


    Laughed at loud at the bolded. That's too bad about duality being considered only interpersonally.
    I don't know about that one. Socionics theory does say that you should be focusing on your ego functions while ensuring the proper environment for your superid needs. And from a perspective I can see why that's good. It sounds like, to me, it's the best use of your energy, focusing it on your natural preferences.

    Why waste too much of your energy on functions that you are not so naturally tuned into?

    I have been there and have been burned by it a bit. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to be a bit more aware of all your sides, incl weaker functions and whatnot, I'm sure it gives you some advantages but I think there's a limit beyond which it just really isn't fruitful anymore...IMO

    Perhaps if the lead function or whatever function has become too one sided then it's a good idea to focus on the other function(s).

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    It's a little hard to tell where Pi ends and Ti begins.
    I guess I forgot to say that I agree sometimes it's hard to tell.

    Can't functions "blend" into each other so closely...?


    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    In the end, I'm still going to try for more Se. Will, vibrance, presence, spontaneity, a claim to your own space in the collective space - all these are invaluable. There's a clear frustration there about not always being able to get and stay out of my head for too long - and the funny part about it is that even the frustration will be filtered through some life-zapping tunnel of dissection before I can express it otherwise.
    Btw, how are you going to do this attempt of "try for more Se"?

  9. #49
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Which Si is that? MBTI? Socionics Si is very much something else.
    mbti Si, except I think common understanding focuses too much on its recall. My experience of Si feels more holistic. One thing I think both Pi functions do is loosen established [semantic/conceptual] stitching and shake what's in them out of them - result being utterly free perception. 'Dream logic' for Si(+Ne) and infinite plasticity for Ni(+Se). I do like socionics' point about synesthesia a lot.

    Maybe the clue is in your life so far...
    I got sort of close to an ESTP 8w7 once, probably an SLE, who I thought was really cool - half intimidated half 'starstruck' by her. Dr Mobius made a really good case for me being Alpha instead of Beta though. Til I stop overthinking it I'm going to isolate my thoughts to what I need instead of why. Lol wrong environment could be the case but for the most part I'm more concerned now with the part of Se that'd let me self-express without intellect acting as the overzealous middle man. Fully feeling certain things like anger and conveying them naturally for instance; acting on instincts as they come up, connecting to more things instinctually, accepting and not fearing instincts in general.

    What is the difference to you?
    Dispassionate but emotional = wide range of emotion but low range of excitability? I wonder if I could get away with using 'moody ennui'.

    What kind of expectations, do you mind giving some real life examples?
    1. Person has the perception that I'm a 'wholesome girl'.

    2. Person automatically sets up a mental list of things I will and won't do, not far from things I can and can't do [without disrupting their perceptual security]. This is where unspoken impositions come in.

    3. How they'll treat me is in two guesswork lines (motives + values) branching off of that perception. The entire process fluctuates in unison with the perception.

    It isn't necessarily important, but it's of consequence. The trouble with it is that for better or worse, sometimes these impositions are taken for emanations - as if they're innate qualities of the object - and so betrayals of them may also be taken as failures of the object. The praise or blame for any given response might be shifted to the object.

    So, am I comfortable accepting this imposition of 'wholesome girl' [based on how they might react to me with it, and based on who I personally know myself to be]? If not, I'll choose either to withdraw, withhold, or negotiate it away. I don't feel any particular way about these things so much as I'm just often thinking about them, as an Fe user.

    Socionics theory does say that you should be focusing on your ego functions while ensuring the proper environment for your superid needs. And from a perspective I can see why that's good. It sounds like, to me, it's the best use of your energy, focusing it on your natural preferences.
    My type (6w7) is notorious for being able to think itself into exhaustion.

    Throwing some Se in there would probably be less stressful than not; at least that's partially been my experience so far. Getting better at Se is more of a need than a decision. I'll probably work on it until the need literally stops. I'm assuming I can only get healthier.

    Btw, how are you going to do this attempt of "try for more Se"?
    Broadly: practice, patience, introspect, repeat. Specific examples are probably too many to list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    I got sort of close to an ESTP 8w7 once, probably an SLE, who I thought was really cool - half intimidated half 'starstruck' by her. Dr Mobius made a really good case for me being Alpha instead of Beta though. Til I stop overthinking it I'm going to isolate my thoughts to what I need instead of why. Lol wrong environment could be the case but for the most part I'm more concerned now with the part of Se that'd let me self-express without intellect acting as the overzealous middle man. Fully feeling certain things like anger and conveying them naturally for instance; acting on instincts as they come up, connecting to more things instinctually, accepting and not fearing instincts in general.
    Maybe a strange question but how did you realize in the first place that you were "missing out" on the instinctual stuff?


    Dispassionate but emotional = wide range of emotion but low range of excitability? I wonder if I could get away with using 'moody ennui'.
    Okay I see.


    1. Person has the perception that I'm a 'wholesome girl'.

    2. Person automatically sets up a mental list of things I will and won't do, not far from things I can and can't do [without disrupting their perceptual security]. This is where unspoken impositions come in.

    3. How they'll treat me is in two guesswork lines (motives + values) branching off of that perception. The entire process fluctuates in unison with the perception.

    It isn't necessarily important, but it's of consequence. The trouble with it is that for better or worse, sometimes these impositions are taken for emanations - as if they're innate qualities of the object - and so betrayals of them may also be taken as failures of the object. The praise or blame for any given response might be shifted to the object.

    So, am I comfortable accepting this imposition of 'wholesome girl' [based on how they might react to me with it, and based on who I personally know myself to be]? If not, I'll choose either to withdraw, withhold, or negotiate it away. I don't feel any particular way about these things so much as I'm just often thinking about them, as an Fe user.
    Stupid "mental list of things". I always hated it when people were trying to do that. I don't even know what's meant by perceptual security honestly. I totally don't get the point of any of that. What security is to be found in there? Just interact and see what happens and respond to that without all that prejudice about what the person is going to do or not going to do or what motives they may have or what values they may have. (Of course I'm not stupid, if I see someone's basically a criminal, I'm not going to trust them. I'm only talking about not making too many assumptions from little data)

    So then, if you think you are being seen as "calm", what's the disadvantage of that specifically? Mind giving me some concrete data here?


    Throwing some Se in there would probably be less stressful than not; at least that's partially been my experience so far. Getting better at Se is more of a need than a decision. I'll probably work on it until the need literally stops. I'm assuming I can only get healthier.

    Broadly: practice, patience, introspect, repeat. Specific examples are probably too many to list.
    Heh how does introspection or patience make you better at more Se? Those things are kind of the antithesis of Se

    Mind giving me a couple examples of the "too many to be listed"?

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