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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Why, thank you.

    Keep in mind your way of viewing the world aint the only one. You may not read between the lines or consider it a waste of your time, but the subtle innuendo, nuance and wording that can be used to wield social and emotional power should not be underestimated. Eloquency is a weapon. This area of expertise is a chessboard all onto its own. And for those mastering that realm, your view on that matter is going to be...shall we say, cute?
    Thing is when others use such nuances, it escapes me most of the time. It leaves me unaffected. So I don't really feel it's a tool for wielding power. Sure maybe it works on others but again, not my choice for a tool. I'm sure it would be great to learn to use it but it seems like a lot of cognitive effort. This is one of the things where MBTI does seem to make a lot of sense to me.

    Why did you call it "cute"?


    Add to that the limitations to speech here due to the lack of access to body language, verbal cues and intonations and well...these kind of miscommunications happen. There is an art to wording things in a way that make them unambiguous - or, very ambiguous depending on your goal.
    This is true that the internet makes these misunderstandings worse.


    It's a matter of preferences, after all. And aint that exactly why we're here - to learn about how others see the world and discover our own blindspots
    Yeah.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theknowing View Post
    That's not true. It is one of your desires. Maybe you are confused as to what security means. I means having plentiful food, water, shelter, a sound mind, your heart in the right place,the ability to keep your lights on, so on and so forth. It's called survival and has little to do eneegaram or whatever it's called. Strange how my least unique little tidbit of info I included in my questionnaire has attracted so much dialogue.
    Yeah well the word "security" is pretty generic. These things you listed I just take for granted though. Of course they are important but it's not what I'd mention when asked what I yearn for.

    The point to the theory of these instincts (sp, so, sx) is that not everyone focuses on these things equally.

    Btw. What did you mean by "your heart in the right place"?

  3. #33
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Thing is when others use such nuances, it escapes me most of the time. It leaves me unaffected. So I don't really feel it's a tool for wielding power. Sure maybe it works on others but again, not my choice for a tool. I'm sure it would be great to learn to use it but it seems like a lot of cognitive effort. This is one of the things where MBTI does seem to make a lot of sense to me.

    Why did you call it "cute"?




    This is true that the internet makes these misunderstandings worse.




    Yeah.
    Because it is cute

    There is a certain naive bluntness to ignoring such information. And I don't mean that in a condescending way. It's occasionally refreshing to see someone just cut through all the power play and innuendo and just...kind of like a child, speak the truth. On the other hand, it also can be irritating to see such a person not understand the complexities and worse, completely dismiss them as irrelevant, when they do matter - this is generally speaking btw, I'm extrapolating now.

    I get the same treatment wrt to what I ignore and refuse to invest in- as you say, coz it is such a big cognitive effort. In my case, this is everything to do with Ti. To me its convoluted, unnecessary and not worth the investment. But - ironically - ISTPs and even more so INTPs as well as other Ti users will get very irritated with me dismissing their povs and my naive suggestions as it interferes with what they consider important - the objective truth. To me, its not worth the hoopla - but I do recognise their brilliance and mastery when i see it or at least I try to. And it most definitely has its uses.

    The same is true in this case. Not wording things properly and causing miscommunication isn't a big deal onto its own. But entitlement is something that causes irreparable damage in our society as it seeps into peoples attitudes, mentality and leads to objectification of others as the individuals privilege becomes more important than the other people and their needs around that individual. And in that respect, it can become important to ask people to check themselves when they display symptoms of such behaviour - which is what happened here.

    Learning how to be aware of such attitudes, and wording your thoughts with that awareness in mind can minimise miscommunication and drama on all areas, including this particular example. Do you have to be an expert at it? No...but just as I try to appreciate the mastery of those that use Ti and recognise its worth, as well as at least learn some of the basics, it might pay to learn the basics of expressing yourself clearly and being aware of the emotional charge certain words and certain wording can hold in order to present yourself more clearly to others and smoothen interpersonal interactions. Does that mean you have to become an Fe-ninja? No...but a little goes a long way. The effort will be recognised and appreciated
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Because it is cute

    There is a certain naive bluntness to ignoring such information. And I don't mean that in a condescending way. It's occasionally refreshing to see someone just cut through all the power play and innuendo and just...kind of like a child, speak the truth. On the other hand, it also can be irritating to see such a person not understand the complexities and worse, completely dismiss them as irrelevant, when they do matter - this is generally speaking btw, I'm extrapolating now.
    OK I get the "cute" thing :/

    As for those complexities... As I mentioned before, they do matter to certain people only. And that's irritating to me that they expect others to be the same lol. Without realizing that it really just doesn't matter to some people. But then I guess it's irritating for me that it matters for those people so we are equal here heh. Both parties equally irritated about the other.

    (I'm talking in general, not about you and me)


    I get the same treatment wrt to what I ignore and refuse to invest in- as you say, coz it is such a big cognitive effort. In my case, this is everything to do with Ti. To me its convoluted, unnecessary and not worth the investment. But - ironically - ISTPs and even more so INTPs as well as other Ti users will get very irritated with me dismissing their povs and my naive suggestions as it interferes with what they consider important - the objective truth. To me, its not worth the hoopla - but I do recognise their brilliance and mastery when i see it or at least I try to. And it most definitely has its uses.
    I can see why you'd feel it's convoluted and unnecessary. I totally understand Ti looks like that compared to Te. It's not like I have a choice though, I just "need" to use it to process things. And it's a really powerful tool once the whole (logical) picture is put together about something.

    I don't mind if someone doesn't care about all the Ti stuff, they don't need to analyse stuff if they don't want to. My problem is only if I get a reaction loaded with personal attacks. Innuendos, whatever plays, as you said. I hate that sort of stuff. So the only thing I expect unconsciously & automatically is that other people try to process what I say without getting hung on whatever possible personal meanings, reading between the lines.

    Btw I don't know what naive suggestions you tend to have that annoys Ti users but I don't think I would be annoyed, I would just try to understand what you said. I have a lot of patience with that sort of thing. I'm not too worried about it "interfering" with the objective truth. I don't want to close myself to new data. That truth won't be any good if it's concluded by explicitly ignoring some data.

    So please don't assume Ti users are all alike


    The same is true in this case. Not wording things properly and causing miscommunication isn't a big deal onto its own. But entitlement is something that causes irreparable damage in our society as it seeps into peoples attitudes, mentality and leads to objectification of others as the individuals privilege becomes more important than the other people and their needs around that individual. And in that respect, it can become important to ask people to check themselves when they display symptoms of such behaviour - which is what happened here.
    Well I see a simple solution there; just let others know what you need. If they ignore it even when you explicitly spoke up then better not deal with those people anymore.

    Maybe you'll see this as oversimplification but that'll be our cognitive differences ;P


    Learning how to be aware of such attitudes, and wording your thoughts with that awareness in mind can minimise miscommunication and drama on all areas, including this particular example. Do you have to be an expert at it? No...but just as I try to appreciate the mastery of those that use Ti and recognise its worth, as well as at least learn some of the basics, it might pay to learn the basics of expressing yourself clearly and being aware of the emotional charge certain words and certain wording can hold in order to present yourself more clearly to others and smoothen interpersonal interactions. Does that mean you have to become an Fe-ninja? No...but a little goes a long way. The effort will be recognised and appreciated
    My solution is again simple; don't assume atittudes until actions clearly express them. Maybe it's hard for F types to NOT read into the lines though so then my solution isn't so simple for you F people?

    It's equally hard for me though to always stop in every second to check my wording and behaviour. Sure you can tell me that's not really required but I guess that's what an inferior function is like, hard to control it.

    (I'm not saying I disagree with the idea that some basics are useful.)


    PS: I wonder if OP relates to all this? As an ISTP?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Yeah well the word "security" is pretty generic. These things you listed I just take for granted though. Of course they are important but it's not what I'd mention when asked what I yearn for.

    The point to the theory of these instincts (sp, so, sx) is that not everyone focuses on these things equally.

    Btw. What did you mean by "your heart in the right place"?
    Good question! Basically, it means having unconditional respect for women, children, men 65 and older, and animals. It means harming only those who have harmed the before-mentioned groups and/or your loved ones and being generous to those who are homeless, suicidal, autistic, etc. It's waking up in the morning and symbolically crossing your chest the way those Catholics do even if you are faithless, to show some kind of humility toward the universe. That sort of thing.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    OK I get the "cute" thing :/

    As for those complexities... As I mentioned before, they do matter to certain people only. And that's irritating to me that they expect others to be the same lol. Without realizing that it really just doesn't matter to some people. But then I guess it's irritating for me that it matters for those people so we are equal here heh. Both parties equally irritated about the other.

    (I'm talking in general, not about you and me)




    I can see why you'd feel it's convoluted and unnecessary. I totally understand Ti looks like that compared to Te. It's not like I have a choice though, I just "need" to use it to process things. And it's a really powerful tool once the whole (logical) picture is put together about something.

    I don't mind if someone doesn't care about all the Ti stuff, they don't need to analyse stuff if they don't want to. My problem is only if I get a reaction loaded with personal attacks. Innuendos, whatever plays, as you said. I hate that sort of stuff. So the only thing I expect unconsciously & automatically is that other people try to process what I say without getting hung on whatever possible personal meanings, reading between the lines.

    Btw I don't know what naive suggestions you tend to have that annoys Ti users but I don't think I would be annoyed, I would just try to understand what you said. I have a lot of patience with that sort of thing. I'm not too worried about it "interfering" with the objective truth. I don't want to close myself to new data. That truth won't be any good if it's concluded by explicitly ignoring some data.

    So please don't assume Ti users are all alike




    Well I see a simple solution there; just let others know what you need. If they ignore it even when you explicitly spoke up then better not deal with those people anymore.

    Maybe you'll see this as oversimplification but that'll be our cognitive differences ;P




    My solution is again simple; don't assume atittudes until actions clearly express them. Maybe it's hard for F types to NOT read into the lines though so then my solution isn't so simple for you F people?

    It's equally hard for me though to always stop in every second to check my wording and behaviour. Sure you can tell me that's not really required but I guess that's what an inferior function is like, hard to control it.

    (I'm not saying I disagree with the idea that some basics are useful.)


    PS: I wonder if OP relates to all this? As an ISTP?
    Heh, see this is why I tend to either get along with ISTPS marvellously, or not at all. They either want it all Ti, or they are, as you stated, very willing to not assume a thing and just map things out as we go along

    Trust me, I have the same grievances when I get called on not getting the complexities of Ti, and get explained it aint as black and white as I'd like to paint it. And I aint about to change the way I work either - it's just not a useful tool to me. And you're right, it would require incredible energy to use it every day at every moment - which is why I was amused to see an Fe-aux be that annoyed with an Fe-inferior.

    I understand where he was coming from (The INFJ), as he does have a point - but then he too should be able to realise that for an Fe-inferior, those things just aren't as...clear. I'm sure he does, for that matter. You can make ISTPs reflect on this for sure, and hell, if you take the time to explain it fully, they'll even - like you just did - completely understand, but adjustments will be made at their pace and when they've run into such an issue enough times to actually warrant the energy needed to make such a chance.

    So no, I wouldn't want you guys to be any other way. Nor would I want to burden you with having to contemplate these issues every second of every day as it would detract from the awesome strengths you guys do possess. All I'm asking is...be aware of it and recognise it for what it is when you do run into this issue. It'll already go a long way in keeping the lines of communication open

    And similarly...if I ever do run into a Ti-issue with you - please be patient with me. I'm so willing to learn, I just..need a moment to become aware that there is in fact an issue and a willing guide to walk me through why it is one
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theknowing View Post
    Good question! Basically, it means having unconditional respect for women, children, men 65 and older, and animals. It means harming only those who have harmed the before-mentioned groups and/or your loved ones and being generous to those who are homeless, suicidal, autistic, etc. It's waking up in the morning and symbolically crossing your chest the way those Catholics do even if you are faithless, to show some kind of humility toward the universe. That sort of thing.
    Ah... and why's that related to you having security / desiring security?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Heh, see this is why I tend to either get along with ISTPS marvellously, or not at all. They either want it all Ti, or they are, as you stated, very willing to not assume a thing and just map things out as we go along

    (...) All I'm asking is...be aware of it and recognise it for what it is when you do run into this issue. It'll already go a long way in keeping the lines of communication open

    And similarly...if I ever do run into a Ti-issue with you - please be patient with me. I'm so willing to learn, I just..need a moment to become aware that there is in fact an issue and a willing guide to walk me through why it is one
    That's fair enough

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theknowing View Post
    That's not true. It is one of your desires. Maybe you are confused as to what security means. I means having plentiful food, water, shelter, a sound mind, your heart in the right place,the ability to keep your lights on, so on and so forth. It's called survival and has little to do eneegaram or whatever it's called. Strange how my least unique little tidbit of info I included in my questionnaire has attracted so much dialogue.

    I understand what you mean man. As you first get into typology, mbti is really enough, but if you stay interested for a while, you start to notice the most subtle differences in peoples personalities. Is it kinda dumb to be that into it? Yeah, I kinda think it is, which is why i try not to let myself spend too much time on here. But, once you do really start to pay attention to typology a lot, you'll notice pretty big differences between people of the same type and it will be confusing. FOR ME, enneagram clears that up. I totally understand you not wanting to care about it yet though, lol. I just saw what I saw in your description because I have enneagram on my mind right now honestly.

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    Man fuck Ti doms on second thought. Apparently they are a lot of douchebags from what I've been reading. Matter of fact, I now don't like the sound having an inferior feeling or thinking function. The former makes me see myself a graceless prick and the latter would have me constantly questioning my intelligence, or at least how much I truly value it. Someone teach me how to be anything other than EXTJ, IXTP, EXFJ, or IXFP please. Dead serious here. It would really make my poor little ego healthier.

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