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  1. #21
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    It's possible, and I agree that things are totally different depending on your core type, instinct, mbti type, etc. So I guess my question is... how does eight present when you are an introverted, double withdrawn type? (@small.wonder I'm looking at you...)

    I know we talked about not wanting to be controlled and all that, but I just have a really hard time recognizing my gut. I kind of feel like this:


    Gutless...

    Umm the Hole song points to 8 haha.

    When I think of 'gut-last' people...when it's clear it will never be anything other than weakly expressed...all I'm really taking into consideration is the fear...the energy inherent in the type...and how the individual instinctually responds to certain stimuli. It's almost like e8 is a pilot light...or like I said to another member...a bonfire that burns far off in the distance. I also see it as a feature that keeps your mind constantly turning (<-I just realized I need to separate what I mean here...from Head and Gut...hold on...Edit: I forgot to eta yesterday. With regards to us 478/748...Head 7 = thinking for distraction and pleasure...but 8 brings in a grounding/instinctual element that keeps Heart and Head purpose driven. Again, it's like a pilot light...keeping one mindful of purpose.)

    That blind spot you mentioned still has me floored.
    Last edited by Starry; 04-12-2014 at 12:59 PM.

  2. #22
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    It's possible, and I agree that things are totally different depending on your core type, instinct, mbti type, etc. So I guess my question is... how does eight present when you are an introverted, double withdrawn type? (@small.wonder I'm looking at you...)

    I know we talked about not wanting to be controlled and all that, but I just have a really hard time recognizing my gut. I kind of feel like this:


    Gutless...

    Well that sucks, I actually just stumbled on this (no notification) but I'm glad I did! First off Re: the OP, I don't think tritype is a super vital thing (like instinctual variant for instance) and it's not the end of the world if you don't identify with one of them. Also, I think what @Starry said about each tritype looking very different depending on core (and instinct to some extent) is very valid. It's unfortunate that there's hardly any info on the internet about that, but I think we can infer pretty easily how the general description would bend.

    To answer your question: 8 manifests in a double withdrawn introvert in the same way it does in an introverted 8. My father is one, perhaps that's how I recognized the traits in myself: extreme independence, resistance to being controlled in any way, confrontational (in a highly emotional + intellectual way for a 4w5), forcing of will upon environment etc. So if someone is being a total jerk to the barista at my favorite coffee shop, even though I'm a double withdrawn introvert, I will very directly tell them they are out of line. Making a public spectacle in not something I'm sensitive about generally.

    Something I think is not taken into account enough with tritype though, is the fact that not all of the traits of our fix will come through, just some. I tend to put myself out there for underdogs but I don't have even close to the level of crass or disrespectful sense of humor that my Dad does. I think this varies from individual to individual, so there's no comparing or "well that girl is 469 and does ______, but I don't so I must not be 469."

    I think the best way to know your tritype is to take an Enneagram test and literally see which head and gut types come out on top.
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  3. #23
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Well that sucks, I actually just stumbled on this (no notification) but I'm glad I did! First off Re: the OP, I don't think tritype is a super vital thing (like instinctual variant for instance) and it's not the end of the world if you don't identify with one of them. Also, I think what @Starry said about each tritype looking very different depending on core (and instinct to some extent) is very valid. It's unfortunate that there's hardly any info on the internet about that, but I think we can infer pretty easily how the general description would bend.

    To answer your question: 8 manifests in a double withdrawn introvert in the same way it does in an introverted 8. My father is one, perhaps that's how I recognized the traits in myself: extreme independence, resistance to being controlled in any way, confrontational (in a highly emotional + intellectual way for a 4w5), forcing of will upon environment etc. So if someone is being a total jerk to the barista at my favorite coffee shop, even though I'm a double withdrawn introvert, I will very directly tell them they are out of line. Making a public spectacle in not something I'm sensitive about generally.

    Something I think is not taken into account enough with tritype though, is the fact that not all of the traits of our fix will come through, just some. I tend to put myself out there for underdogs but I don't have even close to the level of crass or disrespectful sense of humor that my Dad does. I think this varies from individual to individual, so there's no comparing or "well that girl is 469 and does ______, but I don't so I must not be 469."

    I think the best way to know your tritype is to take an Enneagram test and literally see which head and gut types come out on top.
    Other than the fact that I personally think instinctual variant(s) is one of the most important pieces of personality/enneagram theory...I agree wholeheartedly with everything you wrote. Beautiful.

  4. #24
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Other than the fact that I personally think instinctual variant(s) is one of the most important pieces of personality/enneagram theory...I agree wholeheartedly with everything you wrote. Beautiful.
    Thanks! If you're referring to my mention of instinctual variants in the second parentheses of the first sentence, I meant that they are of vital importance. So we are in total agreeance.
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  5. #25
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    To answer your question: 8 manifests in a double withdrawn introvert in the same way it does in an introverted 8. My father is one, perhaps that's how I recognized the traits in myself: extreme independence, resistance to being controlled in any way, confrontational (in a highly emotional + intellectual way for a 4w5), forcing of will upon environment etc. So if someone is being a total jerk to the barista at my favorite coffee shop, even though I'm a double withdrawn introvert, I will very directly tell them they are out of line. Making a public spectacle in not something I'm sensitive about generally.
    Okay, yeah. I relate to this quite well. There have been many situations in which I've reacted like your hypothetical barista situation. I was told that was a 1 thing. What do you think a 1 fix would do instead in that situation?

    Something I think is not taken into account enough with tritype though, is the fact that not all of the traits of our fix will come through, just some. I tend to put myself out there for underdogs but I don't have even close to the level of crass or disrespectful sense of humor that my Dad does. I think this varies from individual to individual, so there's no comparing or "well that girl is 469 and does ______, but I don't so I must not be 469."
    Yeah, I definitely don't have the bolded. I'm not overly proper but I'm not that into crass either. I think with e4 comes a level of refinement. And you make a good point.

  6. #26
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Umm the Hole song points to 8 haha.
    Yeah, kind of

    With regards to us 478/748...Head 7 = thinking for distraction and pleasure...but 8 brings in a grounding/instinctual element that keeps Heart and Head purpose driven. Again, it's like a pilot light...keeping one mindful of purpose.)
    I don't feel like I'm very good at keeping mindful of purpose. I hate the idea of being told what to do/ controlled, but I suck at staying the course.

    That blind spot you mentioned still has me floored.
    How so?

  7. #27
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    This isn't the most scientific way of doing things, but I read the ocean moonshine descriptions for the sx/sps and what I got from it was:

    5 or 7, not 6

    9 or 8, not 1

  8. #28
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Okay, yeah. I relate to this quite well. There have been many situations in which I've reacted like your hypothetical barista situation. I was told that was a 1 thing. What do you think a 1 fix would do instead in that situation?

    Yeah, I definitely don't have the bolded. I'm not overly proper but I'm not that into crass either. I think with e4 comes a level of refinement. And you make a good point.
    I believe and 1 fixer and an 8 fixer might react in a similar way (speaking out), but for different reasons. These are the differences I presume.

    1 fixer
    - confronts in a corrective/judgmental way that this is "amoral" or "not correct".
    - goal is to fix what's wrong, or find justice
    - retains decorum, or a level of self control, more rigid.

    8 fixer
    - confronts out of the belief that the victim cannot stand up for themselves (or just out of sheer irritation at the perpetrator).
    - goal is to control the environment.
    - does not necessarily retain decorum, more blunt or rude-- does not mind making a public spectacle, if need be.

    Just speaking in terms of 1 vs. 8, I've also experienced IRL a lot of "chip on the shoulder" defensiveness from 1's that I don't get from 8 at all. 8 is less concerned with how they are seen, 1 desires to be seen as (and actually be) good. I once heard 1 described as "8 in chains", the chains being morality and justice. 8 is more about survival.

    Hope that helps! I seriously would look at your test results too, though (on one of the tests that reports how high you scored on each type).
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  9. #29
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    The Enneagram Institute also has this great take on the 1 vs. 8 mis-identification. You have to log in to read it, so I just thought I'd put it all here:

    Both Ones and Eights are in the Instinctive Triad, both have strong wills, both are action-oriented, and both have strong notions about how to do things. However, Ones try to convince others to do the right thing (as they see it) from the standpoint of a moral imperative–because it is the right thing to do. They try to logically convince the other of the soundness of their views, but become irritated and less logical when others resists their reasoning. Eights, on the other hand, rely on their own self-confidence, and attempt to sway others by their gutsy convictions and sheer personal charisma. ("I don't know if it's the right way, but it's my way.") Ones try to convert those who resist them: Eights try to power through them.

    The greatest misunderstanding between these two types involves their concern with justice, although the nature of their sense of justice can be quite different. Ones hold justice as an extremely important value–many judges, attorneys, advocates, and criminal prosecutors actually are Ones. Ones think a great deal about issues of providing suitable standards for human beings and about the specifics of how to administer a fair and equitable system. Ones at all Levels of Development refer to justice and think that they seek justice (no matter how skewed their interpretation of it may become). In any case, justice is a matter of principles–part of their idealism. They strive after justice and want to rectify injustices wherever they find them because, among other reasons, to do otherwise would be to fail to live up to their high moral standards and make them feel guilty.

    In Eights, justice is more of a visceral response, a reaction to witnessing injustices occurring. Eights, generally speaking, do not walk around thinking about these matters, but if they saw a helpless person being harmed or bullied by others, without thinking about it, Eights would rush in to "level the playing field." For Eights, justice has little to do with abstract principles. Eights see themselves as protectors of others, and when they are healthy, they actually are. Eights are more likely to seek justice for "their people"–their family, friends, co-workers, ethnic group, and so forth. It is usually expressed in a concern that those in their care (or under their power and authority) be treated fairly. The cowboy marshal protecting the town against criminals and the union chief negotiating a just wage for the rank and file are examples of this more restricted concern for justice. With Eights, the sense of justice usually involves addressing an imbalance of power. This is quite different from the One who seeks to make sure that people are appropriately rewarded for good actions and punished for bad ones.

    Of course, in their unhealthy manifestations, both types can be extremely unjust. Ones will still believe that they are being fair–the punishments they are meting out are for the good of the person being punished, or at the very least, for the good of society. Ones feel they need to rationalize their punitive activities. Eights do not. For unhealthy Eights, administering justice is simply meting out vengeance. ("You hurt me or my people, and I'll destroy you." "He ripped me off. Now he has to pay.") Needless to say, others may question the "justice" in either of these types' unhealthy behavior.

    The confusion between Eights and Ones probably also stems from the fact that some Ones may misidentify themselves as Eights since they would like to have the authority and influence of Eights. They may also recognize that they have aggressive impulses and misidentify themselves as an "aggressive type," although they are really compliant to their ideals; the Eight is the true aggressive type par excellence. On the other hand, Eights almost never misidentify themselves as Ones, viewing Ones as lily-livered and bloodless–moral only because they are too weak to be strong. Although Eights themselves are unlikely to think they are Ones, other people sometimes misidentify Eights as Ones because they see them as reformers. But clearly, many natural leaders, including Eights, lead reforms when they are needed. Contrasting Ones such as Pope John Paul II, Ralph Nader, and Hilary Clinton with Eights such as Lee Iococca, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Barbara Walters gives a vivid sense of their differences.
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  10. #30
    brainheart
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    Thanks. I can see aspects of both what you say about one and eight in myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Hope that helps! I seriously would look at your test results too, though (on one of the tests that reports how high you scored on each type).
    On the similar minds test I typically get something along these lines:

    4 leagues above the rest
    5 and 7 pretty much equal
    6
    8 and 9 pretty much equal
    3
    2
    1

    On the enneagram tritypes test from perC I get 4w5/7w6 or 5w4/1w9 or 9w8.

    In regards to what you posted from Enneagram Institute: no to 1. Justice isn't really a word or a concept I use. I don't think justice and fairness is realistic. When people complain about things not being fair, I'll think, Why would you ever think it would be? I mean, it's a good goal, fairness and justice, but it's not something I think about all that much or expect to happen.

    One exception. I am quite idealistic. Am I compliant to those ideals? To some, yes, but not all. I wish I was more compliant, though. For example, I wish I were a vegan because I don't like the idea that I'm killing and harming animals, but I just can't stick to something like that. I don't eat much meat, and when I do I try to get the more humane kind, but still... I'm killing and harming animals. I am pretty vigilant about recycling, though. It bothers me when people throw recycling into trash cans.

    This: You hurt me or my people, and I'll destroy you. Absolutely. But I would extend that to anything I feel can't protect or speak up for itself.

    An example: I live by a creek and I feel very protective of the ducks. When I walk by the creek and see them, I will think about someone bugging them or letting their dogs run loose into the creek and when I think about it, it's like 'Don't fuck with my ducks or I swear I will kill you.' Thinking of someone bothering or harming the ducks makes me extremely angry. When I'm angry like that I feel like I have no control over it, it just comes out. Like when I was little a friend stepped on a grasshopper and I screamed at her, "What did it ever do to you?" Then I punched her in the stomach. When people talk about controlling their anger I seriously have no idea how you would go about doing it.

    That said, other than what I quoted I don't overly identify with the 8. But as a core four, how would I?

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