Is there anything beyond infinity? You tell me! ;)

[infinite]

That sounded bad at first.

There is an introversion/extroversion test out there, just Google it.

Just one?

Seriously though. Socially I'm more introverted and cognitively I don't know, MBTI tests aren't very helpful there.

 

[infinite]

Te "scrounges for evidence." This statement leads me to wonder how far afield socionics has gone from its Jungian roots.

Te is the function of objective control. It's goals are defined by the objective world, while at the same time its goals are oriented back to the objective world. The rules are defined by the objective realm, and then applied by the Te function back to the objective realm.

As Te is a shadow function for Ti, and even what I call its "shadow opposite," I have a hard time relating to its influence upon my thinking and behavior. While the Ti has an ambiguous or indifferent attitude toward Fe, it's attitude toward Te is a definite "get the fuck away."

Yeah well socionics functions are not the same as MBTI functions.

If you saw my keys2cog function test, the "get the fuck away" functions for me are Ne, Fe and Fi. Te isn't so bad.

 

[Mal12345]

...yeah empirical evidence. This about Ti taking a secondary role is interesting though. What does dominant Se look like in such a secondary role?

The Se-dominant person is oriented toward being a sophisticate at best, and a dilettante at worst. Think in terms of wanting the best things life can offer, materialistically. The sophisticate is much more worldly and knowledgeable than the dilettante who is just a wannabe sophisticate.

But as I said above, these functions operate relative to one another.

This is how Ni-inferior reduces the Se-dominant to a secondary role during times of stress

If Ni is your inferior, which then comes out during times of stress in a chaotic fashion, you will become a fabulous narcissist and tell wildly exaggerated stories about your alleged value. I imagine as you tell these stories, in a highly emotional way, your eyes become very wide as your Se-driven imagination stretches the bounds of credibility. You will probably behave in a more physically exaggerated fashion, swinging your arms about as you rant, or some such. It will be analogous to some end-of-the-world fanatic wielding a sign on a street corner, except in a more grounded and personal context.

 

[Mal12345]

Yeah well socionics functions are not the same as MBTI functions.

If you saw my keys2cog function test, the "get the fuck away" functions for me are Ne, Fe and Fi. Te isn't so bad.

I'm not interested so much in your function test results as I am in how you are in reality.

 

[Mal12345]

Just one?

Seriously though. Socially I'm more introverted and cognitively I don't know, MBTI tests aren't very helpful there.

I took one I/E test, I'm sure there are more out there. It wasn't MBTI related.

 

[infinite]

The Se-dominant person is oriented toward being a sophisticate at best, and a dilettante at worst. Think in terms of wanting the best things life can offer, materialistically. The sophisticate is much more worldly and knowledgeable than the dilettante who is just a wannabe sophisticate.

But as I said above, these functions operate relative to one another.

This is how Ni-inferior reduces the Se-dominant to a secondary role during times of stress

If Ni is your inferior, which then comes out during times of stress in a chaotic fashion, you will become a fabulous narcissist and tell wildly exaggerated stories about your alleged value. I imagine as you tell these stories, in a highly emotional way, your eyes become very wide as your Se-driven imagination stretches the bounds of credibility. You will probably behave in a more physically exaggerated fashion, swinging your arms about as you rant, or some such. It will be analogous to some end-of-the-world fanatic wielding a sign on a street corner, except in a more grounded and personal context.

Well that's interesting. This actually happened before but I totally hated that because it rendered me useless for any real activity in the world. If that makes sense. Anyway, I realized this pretty soon and so I decided I didn't want it and dropped it. I do sometimes have a sense for controlling myself in a psychological way. That control either comes from insights that come to me sometimes or just simply works without me being aware how it works (I have my own theories why it works, sure). And no, I don't like to see any of this as having a mystical quality. It's probably explainable by psychology, just not easily. I just wanted to mention that in case this control stuff sounds crazy. I could talk about this stuff a lot more but I don't think it would make sense to anyone, heh.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not walking around always controlling my stuff in this way. It's a sporadic thing.


You wrote this about Ti vs Fe:

However, I don't go for function theory that leaves functions out of relationship. For example, when Fe-inferior becomes the Ti-dom's primary function during stressful periods, it places Ti in the service of rationalizing striking out, either at particular individuals or at society in general. When Si becomes involved, it aids Ti and Fe by serving up black-and-white symbols of good and evil. Fe is the function of societal mores. It offers models of societal ideals, such as what constitutes "masculine" and "feminine." These are considered negative standards which come to repel the Ti-dominant type, who is normally either ambivalent to them or considers societal ideals to be unobjective "sacred idols" used by authoritarian types (Te or Fe) as methods of domination and conformity. Ironically, the Ti-dom, under stress, becomes similarly domineering, although as you noted, in an erratic and chaotic sense.

I sometimes run into people who I react to in a somewhat similar way, though not totally like this. Specifically, what I do is attack some of their Fe-ish standards. I don't really worry about these abstract ideals that you describe here, it's about concrete situations. So it's different for me in that way.

Anyway I don't argue about it too often, it happens more often that I just get a negative feeling about quite some social norms. Meh. I'm really bad at that shit. But I've already ranted enough about it in this thread/forum.

I'm not interested so much in your function test results as I am in how you are in reality.

I was trying to do that test without bias but sure it's just a test.

I took one I/E test, I'm sure there are more out there. It wasn't MBTI related.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68652&page=2&p=2274084#post2274084

I happened to take this one today, it was your thread too.

Does it help?

 

[Mal12345]

Well that's interesting. This actually happened before but I totally hated that because it rendered me useless for any real activity in the world. If that makes sense. Anyway, I realized this pretty soon and so I decided I didn't want it and dropped it. I do sometimes have a sense for controlling myself in a psychological way. That control either comes from insights that come to me sometimes or just simply works without me being aware how it works (I have my own theories why it works, sure). And no, I don't like to see any of this as having a mystical quality. It's probably explainable by psychology, just not easily. I just wanted to mention that in case this control stuff sounds crazy. I could talk about this stuff a lot more but I don't think it would make sense to anyone, heh.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not walking around always controlling my stuff in this way. It's a sporadic thing.


You wrote this about Ti vs Fe:



I sometimes run into people who I react to in a somewhat similar way, though not totally like this. Specifically, what I do is attack some of their Fe-ish standards. I don't really worry about these abstract ideals that you describe here, it's about concrete situations. So it's different for me in that way.

Anyway I don't argue about it too often, it happens more often that I just get a negative feeling about quite some social norms. Meh. I'm really bad at that shit. But I've already ranted enough about it in this thread/forum.




I was trying to do that test without bias but sure it's just a test.




http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68652&page=2&p=2274084#post2274084

I happened to take this one today, it was your thread too.

Does it help?

It'll do for a test anyway. You came out as an ambivert. Most people are ambiverts. But my question for [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] is, if someone doesn't conform to any particular test result, then how does analyzing the inferior resolve this? There may not be one particular inferior that stands out. So you'll be in the same boat as before when analyzing for the correct dominant.

At times I've solved this dilemma by telling the person to choose one and stick with it until it becomes your dominant, because it's very likely that your dominant is not differentiated enough for it to stand apart from another one.

"And no, I don't like to see any of this as having a mystical quality." Ni-inferior only lends Se an exaggerated demeanor that stretches the limits of credibility - as mysticism does, but without actually being mystical. As the claims of Se in an Ni-spin become more exaggerated and fantastical, the eyes widen almost fanatically and the body becomes more and more active but, as you hinted, in an impractical sense that accomplishes nothing but wasted energy, probably because it's being directed toward convincing others (Fe). And as its only purpose is to bring the Ego back to a state of equilibrium, in that sense, objective accomplishment is not even a goal.

If you only somewhat identify with this explanation (which I imagined you would), then I would look at the other inferior (I call it that because Jung did not talk about tertiaries), undifferentiated function. You kind of identify with my example of Ti in an Fe spin. But the difference lies in the activity of that other undifferentiated function - the fact that you react to the Fe standards of others. I don't know if your example above involved stressing out about their standards. But your reactions are bound to be more practical because of Se. Ironically, in stressful situations you will become as narcissistic as those "phonies" (so to speak) who pretend to stand for some standards objectively external to them.

All in all, I think you're more ISTP.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION]

Analyzing the inferior will mitigate the odd dichotomy of I vs E by showing what the type's dominant function must be. While there are several ambiverted xSTPs, the key to actually figuring out their closest psychological type would be to figure out the inferior function, for that function is always the weakest and is always the gateway to the unconscious, thus making it constant. Whether or not that function is easy to discern, however, is an entirely different matter.

 

[Mal12345]

[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION]

Analyzing the inferior will mitigate the odd dichotomy of I vs E by showing what the type's dominant function must be. While there are several ambiverted xSTPs, the key to actually figuring out their closest psychological type would be to figure out the inferior function, for that function is always the weakest and is always the gateway to the unconscious, thus making it constant. Whether or not that function is easy to discern, however, is an entirely different matter.

What's the difference between the inferior (besides being the gateway to the unconscious) and the so-called tertiary?

And what do you mean by "weakest"?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

What's the difference between the inferior (besides being the gateway to the unconscious) and the so-called tertiary?

And what do you mean by "weakest"?

The tertiary function is more accessible to the individual, meaning that the INTP for instance will be able to use Si properly with more ease than he will be able to use Fe properly. Development is all about learning how to control our lower functions so that they can be used positively. The reason why the inferior function is the "weakest" function is that it conflicts with the dominant attitude, the function that is used the most, so naturally the individual, when engaging in the dominant function, will usually neglect the inverse inferior function because it is so alien to the dominant function. The tertiary function is more accessible because it is the natural inverse of the Auxiliary, which still causes it to be a "little weaker" but unlike the inferior, this function can actively compliment or detriment the dominant function, meaning that the dominant function's processes don't openly conflict with the tertiary as much as it does with the inferior function. The inferior function is also called the gateway to the unconscious because it is so uncontrollable to the user clinging to the dominant perspective, it is seen as sort of unrefined and wild, something that shouldn't always be trusted, but with development we learn that we can, in fact, trust the inferior function.

Anyways, our work here is done since we are both in accordance that OP is an ISTP.

 

[infinite]

It'll do for a test anyway. You came out as an ambivert. Most people are ambiverts. But my question for [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] is, if someone doesn't conform to any particular test result, then how does analyzing the inferior resolve this? There may not be one particular inferior that stands out. So you'll be in the same boat as before when analyzing for the correct dominant.

Gotcha, there was a reason why I mentioned so much about both Ni and Fe. Because if I had been able to decide it all on my own I wouldn't even have asked lol. I guess it also depends on how you look at it, with what theory.

At times I've solved this dilemma by telling the person to choose one and stick with it until it becomes your dominant, because it's very likely that your dominant is not differentiated enough for it to stand apart from another one.

How do you exactly stick with a function to actually cause a psychological differentiation? I mean, what's the practical implementation of that?

Btw I did try to observe myself before and found that I have no problem declaring "oh yes I'm in a Ti mind state now". If you know what I mean. It's pretty obvious in some cases, when I'm actually being in my head analysing. In other cases not so obvious because it's a more instinctual use of it. Snap conclusions made in an automatic, unconscious fashion. I simply just "feel" them. I know it's Ti because 1) it's a logical "feeling" 2) I can reason it all out by conscious analysis in my head.

Se mind state is a different matter, I don't think I can do the above with that. I'm not sure why.

"And no, I don't like to see any of this as having a mystical quality." Ni-inferior only lends Se an exaggerated demeanor that stretches the limits of credibility - as mysticism does, but without actually being mystical. As the claims of Se in an Ni-spin become more exaggerated and fantastical, the eyes widen almost fanatically and the body becomes more and more active but, as you hinted, in an impractical sense that accomplishes nothing but wasted energy, probably because it's being directed toward convincing others (Fe). And as its only purpose is to bring the Ego back to a state of equilibrium, in that sense, objective accomplishment is not even a goal.

Oh by mysticism I meant that the mind control stuff could've sounded like that.

I have no idea what my eyes looked like in those states lol But yes, more active body and I see you do get the idea about how it's impractical stuff.

I have to mention one thing however; I didn't really direct it towards convincing others through Fe. I kept almost all of my thoughts to myself, though others could certainly see that I was upset in some weird way. That make any sense to you?

How does that process bring the Ego back to equilibrium? Explain a bit more about this? And you meant this for Se-doms specificially? Whereas for Ti-doms it's the Ti/Fe axis that does this bringing back to equilibrium?

If you only somewhat identify with this explanation (which I imagined you would)

I very much identified with it but as I said, it was only once, under the biggest stress of my life. And I gained control over it.

then I would look at the other inferior (I call it that because Jung did not talk about tertiaries), undifferentiated function. You kind of identify with my example of Ti in an Fe spin. But the difference lies in the activity of that other undifferentiated function - the fact that you react to the Fe standards of others. I don't know if your example above involved stressing out about their standards. But your reactions are bound to be more practical because of Se. Ironically, in stressful situations you will become as narcissistic as those "phonies" (so to speak) who pretend to stand for some standards objectively external to them.

Yes I kind of stress out about their standards. At least I get all irritable and even angry. Such a knee-jerk reaction really. I see all that stuff as being unfair on certain people. I will go out of my way to defend those people even when they don't ask or are not even present there, heh.

Why are you saying I become just as narcissistic in these cases?

All in all, I think you're more ISTP.

Because of how I ranted more about Fe? Or what was the decisive factor for you?

 

[infinite]

The tertiary function is more accessible to the individual, meaning that the INTP for instance will be able to use Si properly with more ease than he will be able to use Fe properly. Development is all about learning how to control our lower functions so that they can be used positively. The reason why the inferior function is the "weakest" function is that it conflicts with the dominant attitude, the function that is used the most, so naturally the individual, when engaging in the dominant function, will usually neglect the inverse inferior function because it is so alien to the dominant function. The tertiary function is more accessible because it is the natural inverse of the Auxiliary, which still causes it to be a "little weaker" but unlike the inferior, this function can actively compliment or detriment the dominant function, meaning that the dominant function's processes don't openly conflict with the tertiary as much as it does with the inferior function. The inferior function is also called the gateway to the unconscious because it is so uncontrollable to the user clinging to the dominant perspective, it is seen as sort of unrefined and wild, something that shouldn't always be trusted, but with development we learn that we can, in fact, trust the inferior function.

What's that gateway to the unconscious like?

Anyway going by this, I would say Fe is harder to control than Ni. Maybe it's the gateway you're talking about but you'll have to explain more about that. What does Fe look like in the role of er, gateway?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

What's that gateway to the unconscious like?

Anyway going by this, I would say Fe is harder to control than Ni. Maybe it's the gateway you're talking about but you'll have to explain more about that. What does Fe look like in the role of er, gateway?

The inferior function will be the function that surprises you after its tantrum is done. Say you express your inferior function at something harshly, a week later you may question yourself "did I actually do that? Was that actually me?". This is due to the fact that the inferior function when it is not controlled can explode under negative stress. For Fe specifically, it would be like you blowing up emotionally at your stressor and then looking back on it uneasily, as if you weren't acting like yourself at the time. With positive development, individuals begin to realize that their inferior is apart of them, and that it needs to be nourished and stimulated as well.

 

[infinite]

The inferior function will be the function that surprises you after its tantrum is done. Say you express your inferior function at something harshly, a week later you may question yourself "did I actually do that? Was that actually me?". This is due to the fact that the inferior function when it is not controlled can explode under negative stress. For Fe specifically, it would be like you blowing up emotionally at your stressor and then looking back on it uneasily, as if you weren't acting like yourself at the time. With positive development, individuals begin to realize that their inferior is apart of them, and that it needs to be nourished and stimulated as well.

I don't really question myself in that fashion. It's all me for sure, I just used to get second thoughts on whether it was necessary to blow up like that. I improved at that, I no longer care much. I mean I still do the blowing up but I don't mind so much afterwards.

Just one question; what does that look like for Se-doms with Ni? What are they getting second thoughts about afterwards? It's surely not about emotional outbursts but what?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I don't really question myself in that fashion. It's all me for sure, I just used to get second thoughts on whether it was necessary to blow up like that. I improved at that, I no longer care much. I mean I still do the blowing up but I don't mind so much afterwards.

Just one question; what does that look like for Se-doms with Ni? What are they getting second thoughts about afterwards? It's surely not about emotional outbursts but what?

Se dominants become excessively paranoid about others' intentions (Ni-Fe polarization), insinuating excessively and becomingly highly cynical. They also become more reserved and troubled by the perceived future.

 

[Mal12345]

Because of how I ranted more about Fe? Or what was the decisive factor for you?

Ranting, yes. I always base my typology decisions on ranting because it is the gateway to the unconscious.

 

[infinite]

Se dominants become excessively paranoid about others' intentions (Ni-Fe polarization), insinuating excessively and becomingly highly cynical. They also become more reserved and troubled by the perceived future.

I do that less often but I do this too. Meaning?

Ranting, yes. I always base my typology decisions on ranting because it is the gateway to the unconscious.

Lol. :hi:

Anyway, seriously, is it because you got the impression that I identified more with the Ti/Fe issue than with the Se/Ni one? Is that it? Let me know please.

And I still have this question: "How does that process bring the Ego back to equilibrium? Explain a bit more about this? And you meant this for Se-doms specificially? Whereas for Ti-doms it's the Ti/Fe axis that does this bringing back to equilibrium?"

Thanks much.

 

[simulatedworld]

Live a long good life fully alive, never giving up on things I want.




What a thing really means, e.g. concepts in systems.

The role of the mind and thus psychology in interpreting the world. By psychology I don't mean the touchy-feely kind of it, I mean the technical flavours of it (e.g. cognitive stuff and such).




People's psychology of the touchy-feely kind, haha. Psychology of personality, yeah I know it's funny I'm on this site




Nonjudgmental, open, welcoming people. People with whom you can talk about anything. People who are active, engaging in interaction.




People who criticize behaviour and stuff from a social viewpoint. I also don't really like it if someone's very reserved and unresponsive even if I poke them e.g. extremely autistic people. Pushovers are a bit annoying too, though that's not the same as being uncomfortable.

ISTP certainly seems plausible. I definitely get the Ti flavor here. INTP is also possible but seems less likely.

 

[infinite]

ISTP certainly seems plausible. I definitely get the Ti flavor here. INTP is also possible but seems less likely.

Thanks for the input

 

[infinite]

ISTP certainly seems plausible. I definitely get the Ti flavor here. INTP is also possible but seems less likely.

Actually I forgot to ask, where do you see Se vs Ne?