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  1. #91
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @infinity,

    Oftentimes it is seen that the dominant and auxiliary functions are about on par with each other in terms of development and even sometimes with use. Therefore, the most efficient way to determine one's type between two mirroring types is the inferior function. Do you struggle with expressing your emotions or struggle with seeing the meaning behind things more? (oversimplified, but still qualifiable)
    You could improve this by creating a test for inferior function.
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  2. #92
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    You could improve this by creating a test for inferior function.
    I could, and I think I might be able to use it with stress levels.

    Extreme Stress or Anger

    (IxTP) Fe - Begin expressing their negative feelings excessively and uncontrollaby
    (ESxP) Ni - Become excessively paranoid and negativistic
    etc.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I could, and I think I might be able to use it with stress levels.

    Extreme Stress or Anger

    (IxTP) Fe - Begin expressing their negative feelings excessively and uncontrollaby
    (ESxP) Ni - Become excessively paranoid and negativistic
    etc.
    Are you sure those aren't tertiary traits?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #94
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Well, under stress the tertiary would exact some degree of influence on the inferior function, but it would be predominantly in the negative expression of the inferior function.

    Under stress, a type essentially becomes its negativistic inverse.
    INTP: Ti - Ne - Si - Fe
    ESFJ: Fe - Si - Ne - Ti

    While the inferior function spearheads the negativism, it also works in a mechanism with the tertiary function to specify it, in a way (because all functions have a partner).

    The Ti - Ne mechanism, for instance, is the natural state of the INTP involving the structuring and systematizing of the world through external possibilities.

    However, when the Si - Fe mechanism becomes negatively expressed in the INTP, it flips and becomes the Fe - Si mechanism. The Fe serves as the way the INTP can express its condemnation of whatever event is unfolding and any negative emotions that have been built up, but specifically the teritary function of Si now supports that negative outburst with specific occurrences related to the past.

    Theoretically, when the INTP is extremely angered they would begin to cite all past evidence of someone's wrongdoings and openly attack them with their negative tidings in a chaotic, uncontrollable manner due to the lack of expertise INTPs have in this department unlike the ESFJs.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Well, under stress the tertiary would exact some degree of influence on the inferior function, but it would be predominantly in the negative expression of the inferior function.

    Under stress, a type essentially becomes its negativistic inverse.
    INTP: Ti - Ne - Si - Fe
    ESFJ: Fe - Si - Ne - Ti

    While the inferior function spearheads the negativism, it also works in a mechanism with the tertiary function to specify it, in a way (because all functions have a partner).

    The Ti - Ne mechanism, for instance, is the natural state of the INTP involving the structuring and systematizing of the world through external possibilities.

    However, when the Si - Fe mechanism becomes negatively expressed in the INTP, it flips and becomes the Fe - Si mechanism. The Fe serves as the way the INTP can express its condemnation of whatever event is unfolding and any negative emotions that have been built up, but specifically the teritary function of Si now supports that negative outburst with specific occurrences related to the past.

    Theoretically, when the INTP is extremely angered they would begin to cite all past evidence of someone's wrongdoings and openly attack them with their negative tidings in a chaotic, uncontrollable manner due to the lack of expertise INTPs have in this department unlike the ESFJs.
    I've never heard of a negative Fe-Si flip before. Tertiary loop, yes, when the auxiliary is weakened by circumstances. I'm not saying it's wrong, you could be onto something there.

    However, I don't go for a function theory that leaves functions out of relationship. For example, when Fe-inferior becomes the Ti-dom's primary function during stressful periods, it places Ti in the service of rationalizing striking out, either at particular individuals or at society in general. When Si becomes involved, it aids Ti and Fe by serving up black-and-white symbols of good and evil. Fe is the function of societal mores. It offers models of societal ideals, such as what constitutes "masculine" and "feminine." These are considered negative standards which come to repel the Ti-dominant type, who is normally either ambivalent to them or considers societal ideals to be unobjective "sacred idols" used by authoritarian types (Te or Fe) as methods of domination and conformity. Ironically, the Ti-dom, under stress, becomes similarly domineering, although as you noted, in an erratic and chaotic sense.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #96
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I've never heard of a negative Fe-Si flip before. Tertiary loop, yes, when the auxiliary is weakened by circumstances. I'm not saying it's wrong, you could be onto something there.

    However, I don't go for function theory that leaves functions out of relationship. For example, when Fe-inferior becomes the Ti-dom's primary function during stressful periods, it places Ti in the service of rationalizing striking out, either at particular individuals or at society in general. When Si becomes involved, it aids Ti and Fe by serving up black-and-white symbols of good and evil. Fe is the function of societal mores. It offers models of societal ideals, such as what constitutes "masculine" and "feminine." These are considered negative standards which come to repel the Ti-dominant type, who is normally either ambivalent to them or considers societal ideals to be unobjective "sacred idols" used by authoritarian types (Te or Fe) as methods of domination and conformity. Ironically, the Ti-dom, under stress, becomes similarly domineering, although as you noted, in an erratic and chaotic sense.
    Well we also have to define the different kinds of stress that could trigger various different functions negatively.

    For instance, with shadow theory, if an INTP's Ti constructs are attacked by others, they immediately scrounge for any evidence that could potentially back up their claim (Te, and also where Socionics gets its Te demonstrative concept from). Thus they may adopt a more annoyed, domineering-esque tone? I hate to cross systems here, but the INTj's PoLR is Se, meaning that they would be really bad at becoming assertive and demanding in a constructive or even destructive manner.

    With emotional trauma or stress, Fe arises negatively attempting to cast down the stress with violent outbursts of uncontrollable, raw emotion, linked by the tertiary of Si to harbor and resurface negative feelings from the past and past dealings with certain stressors. I would think the Ti rationalization comes after the wave of emotion leaves and Fe cools off, allowing the dominant process of Ti to take back control and justify actions made by Fe.

    Who knows, we need empirical evidence and we have none.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Well we also have to define the different kinds of stress that could trigger various different functions negatively.

    For instance, with shadow theory, if an INTP's Ti constructs are attacked by others, they immediately scrounge for any evidence that could potentially back up their claim (Te, and also where Socionics gets its Te demonstrative concept from). Thus they may adopt a more annoyed, domineering-esque tone? I hate to cross systems here, but the INTj's PoLR is Se, meaning that they would be really bad at becoming assertive and demanding in a constructive or even destructive manner.

    With emotional trauma or stress, Fe arises negatively attempting to cast down the stress with violent outbursts of uncontrollable, raw emotion, linked by the tertiary of Si to harbor and resurface negative feelings from the past and past dealings with certain stressors. I would think the Ti rationalization comes after the wave of emotion leaves and Fe cools off, allowing the dominant process of Ti to take back control and justify actions made by Fe.

    Who knows, we need empirical evidence and we have none.
    I didn't try to exhaust all the theoretical possibilities with one short post. And empirical evidence would be great, even of the anecdotal variety. My point was to clarify my beliefs regarding functions and how they relate to one another. It's not as if Ti stops working during times of stress, it merely takes on a secondary role. It remains theoretical in nature, although not necessarily abstract - it still serves to assist whichever function has taken on the dominant role. It does this via rationalization - whether during or after the stress period is a moot point.
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  8. #98
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Well we also have to define the different kinds of stress that could trigger various different functions negatively.

    For instance, with shadow theory, if an INTP's Ti constructs are attacked by others, they immediately scrounge for any evidence that could potentially back up their claim (Te, and also where Socionics gets its Te demonstrative concept from). Thus they may adopt a more annoyed, domineering-esque tone? I hate to cross systems here, but the INTj's PoLR is Se, meaning that they would be really bad at becoming assertive and demanding in a constructive or even destructive manner.

    With emotional trauma or stress, Fe arises negatively attempting to cast down the stress with violent outbursts of uncontrollable, raw emotion, linked by the tertiary of Si to harbor and resurface negative feelings from the past and past dealings with certain stressors. I would think the Ti rationalization comes after the wave of emotion leaves and Fe cools off, allowing the dominant process of Ti to take back control and justify actions made by Fe.

    Who knows, we need empirical evidence and we have none.
    Te "scrounges for evidence." This statement leads me to wonder how far afield socionics has gone from its Jungian roots.

    Te is the function of objective control. It's goals are defined by the objective world, while at the same time its goals are oriented back to the objective world. The rules are defined by the objective realm, and then applied by the Te function back to the objective realm.

    As Te is a shadow function for Ti, and even what I call its "shadow opposite," I have a hard time relating to its influence upon my thinking and behavior. While the Ti has an ambiguous or indifferent attitude toward Fe, it's attitude toward Te is a definite "get the fuck away."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I've seen both the Ti and Se sides of you on this forum.
    And you can't tell which is more dominant? Why am I not surprised. :P

    (Just referring to how I can't either. Though been leaning ISTP.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Oftentimes it is seen that the dominant and auxiliary functions are about on par with each other in terms of development and even sometimes with use. Therefore, the most efficient way to determine one's type between two mirroring types is the inferior function. Do you struggle with expressing your emotions or struggle with seeing the meaning behind things more? (oversimplified, but still qualifiable)
    Meaning behind what kinds of things? Real life situations? I don't see any meaning for those in most cases. I can't exactly call that a struggle honestly because I don't even try. Real life is just real life, nothing more, nothing less. If I were to stop and think about meanings, I'd lose contact with the world. I intensely dislike that.

    Don't confuse that with me being in my head analysing something. I'm ok with that, I just don't do it while there's action. I do it later. But, that's just analysis of stuff and it's not usually about attaching meaning beyond that. The latter feels a bit foreign to me, as if I just didn't have the means to connect actual experiences with such abstract meaning. I'm not saying I'm averse to the idea though. Only averse to it while I'm actually living through an experience :P

    I'm however good at seeing the meaning of concepts, though that may just be Ti. Getting to certain kinds of such meanings does require extensive analysis and thinking about it, though, until I get the insight. So I think that's more Ni. I'm only really good at this stuff because I have the will and the patience to get there.

    As for expressing emotions, if I ever feel something, which isn't often with the exception of anger, I absolutely have no problem with expressing it, in fact, I cannot *not* express it in most cases. It requires really strong self-control to prevent expression and I often don't manage to control it. As for anger itself, I have no qualms about expressing it and don't even try to hold back for sure.

    I'm going to also say that (MBTI) Fe in general seems to cause me a lot of negative issues while Ni doesn't really, it just seemingly doesn't affect much in my life (beyond assisting Ti with understanding stuff), just sometimes I realize that I've just absolutely missed something that I shouldn't have... if I had been using at least a tiny little bit of Ni.

    So duh, what do you say this means, ISTP or ESTP? :P

    (The anger stuff, I chalk up to enneagram.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I could, and I think I might be able to use it with stress levels.

    Extreme Stress or Anger

    (IxTP) Fe - Begin expressing their negative feelings excessively and uncontrollaby
    (ESxP) Ni - Become excessively paranoid and negativistic
    etc.
    Eh, that's more often Fe for me then. Then Fe == inferior, unless @Mal12345 is right that these descriptions are actually more like typical tertiary functions.

    As for the Ni one, I experience that less often, I'm not really a paranoid type but sometimes I do get really negativistic under more extreme stress. The Fe stuff is different in that it doesn't need that much extreme stress to "come out" so it happens more often. It passes more easily as well.

    Make sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I didn't try to exhaust all the theoretical possibilities with one short post. And empirical evidence would be great, even of the anecdotal variety. My point was to clarify my beliefs regarding functions and how they relate to one another. It's not as if Ti stops working during times of stress, it merely takes on a secondary role. It remains theoretical in nature, although not necessarily abstract - it still serves to assist whichever function has taken on the dominant role. It does this via rationalization - whether during or after the stress period is a moot point.
    ...yeah empirical evidence. This about Ti taking a secondary role is interesting though. What does dominant Se look like in such a secondary role?

  10. #100
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    And you can't tell which is more dominant? Why am I not surprised. :P

    (Just referring to how I can't either. Though been leaning ISTP.)
    That sounded bad at first.

    There is an introversion/extroversion test out there, just Google it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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